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Five Minute Rant

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Kary English
(@karyenglish)
Posts: 688
Gold Star Member Moderator
 

ROFL! Touche, madame. Then again, mutually assured destruction much?

And with that we return you to your regularly scheduled ranting. Here's mine.

Dagnabit! I'm here to rant that I can't even RANT about rejections if these people won't return my subs! So that means this rant is about waiting.

I hate waiting.

WOTF: 1 HM, 1 Semi, 2 Finalists, 1 Winner
Q2,V31 - Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!
Hugo and Astounding finalist, made the preliminary Stoker ballot (juried)
Published by Galaxy's Edge, DSF, StarShipSofa and TorNightfire

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 1:28 pm
(@solanavi77)
Posts: 33
Advanced Member
 

ROFL! Touche, madame. Then again, mutually assured destruction much?

And with that we return you to your regularly scheduled ranting. Here's mine.

Dagnabit! I'm here to rant that I can't even RANT about rejections if these people won't return my subs! So that means this rant is about waiting.

I hate waiting.

Cheer up. Here's some Tom Petty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMyCa35_mOg

"I'm your Huckleberry" -Doc Holiday, from Tombstone

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 1:36 pm
(@sam-hidaka)
Posts: 11
Active Member
 

Ugh. Forget I said anything. I thought this was a RANT thread. Guess not.

There's nothing wrong with your rant. In fact, it's a pretty common sentiment.

It's just that people who've been at this longer than you have are trying to share the benefits of their experiences.

Thomas K Carpenter, a new anthology editor, makes an important point:
It might take 10 seconds to write, but it takes much longer to come up with feedback that can actually help the writer.

I've looked at north of 10,000 submissions (maybe north of 15,000 -- I stopped counting at 5,000, and that was many years ago). I don't know if I ever passed over a story solely because:
"Your story didn't make it because it was poorly plotted."

Plotting is so fundamental to commercial fiction that if the plotting doesn't work, then there are very likely a whole lot else that's also lacking.

The kind of stories that typically get form-letter rejections usually have enough problems that I genuinely believe a one or two-sentence explanation really and truly will be extremely unhelpful.

Sam

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 1:38 pm
Kary English
(@karyenglish)
Posts: 688
Gold Star Member Moderator
 

If the rant-threaders will indulge me for a moment longer, this whole feedback thing is why I like tiered rejections so much. Fantasy & Science Fiction has a system I adore (Lightspeed, too, though I cannot vouch for this personally).

Their rejects go like this:

1) ... "didn't grab my interest". This means the reader couldn't get into it. Whatever the problem is, it's apparent right off. Also means the reader probably didn't read past the beginning. A few paragraphs at most.

2) ...didn't hold my interest... This means that somewhere in the middle, broadly speaking, the reader got bored/confused / offended or in some other way turned off.

3) ... didn't quite work for me... This one is both frustrating and joy-inducing. "Didn't work" could mean lots of things. The fit was off, they already have stories like that. It's a fine story but it was too long/ too short, etc. BUT - the reader read it all the way through, which means it's probably a decent story, relatively speaking.

WOTF: 1 HM, 1 Semi, 2 Finalists, 1 Winner
Q2,V31 - Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!
Hugo and Astounding finalist, made the preliminary Stoker ballot (juried)
Published by Galaxy's Edge, DSF, StarShipSofa and TorNightfire

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 1:46 pm
(@dantzel)
Posts: 299
Silver Member
 

Seriously, Kary? That's very cool. Both of my subs to Lightspeed said 'didn't quite work for me.'

Still a form rejection, but... but... still!

Vol 29 Q3 Semi Finalist

http://www.dantzelcherry.com

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 1:58 pm
(@solanavi77)
Posts: 33
Advanced Member
 

Seriously, Kary? That's very cool. Both of my subs to Lightspeed said 'didn't quite work for me.'

Still a form rejection, but... but... still!

All of mine have been like this, too! It's good to hear! wotf010

"I'm your Huckleberry" -Doc Holiday, from Tombstone

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 2:00 pm
(@strycher)
Posts: 667
Silver Star Member
 

Yeah, tiered forms are neat.

"The Filigreed Cage" || "Bitter Remedy" || "Heartless" || "The Newsboy's Last Stand" || "Planar Ghosts"

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 2:01 pm
(@martin-l-shoemaker)
Posts: 2135
Platinum Plus Moderator
Topic starter
 

Meta Mode = On

Look, I don't want to make enemies on here. And I sure don't want to torpedo my writing career before it even started. I like you all. And many, if not most of you have experiences I can learn from. I was just looking to rant.

Peace? wotf008

No problems, really. I thought your original rant was well within the spirit with which I opened the thread: "Rational or not, this bugs me!" I thought Patrick was right on track when he wrote that rants aren't supposed to be rational, and needn't be argued with. It's venting. We all need to vent sometimes. So as much as I value Sam's feedback and his insight into his side of the business, I think your rant was still justified in this thread. In another thread, I might've seen reason to disagree.

I incorrectly took your response to Sam as an attack on him, and that set off my "Ouch! Don't do that!" reaction. It was a sympathy wince, really! Sorry I misinterpreted.

Meta Mode = Off

I wish I had a rant to contribute today, but a horrendous digestive malady has struck half the family, and I've been too drained to work up a good rant about anything.

http://nineandsixtyways.com/
Tools, Not Rules.
Martin L. Shoemaker
3rd Place Q1 V31
"Today I Am Paul", WSFA Small Press Award 2015, Nebula nomination 2015
Today I Am Carey from Baen
The Last Dance (#1 science fiction eBook on Amazon, October 2019) and The Last Campaign from 47North

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 2:02 pm
(@martin-l-shoemaker)
Posts: 2135
Platinum Plus Moderator
Topic starter
 

Dagnabit! I'm here to rant that I can't even RANT about rejections if these people won't return my subs! So that means this rant is about waiting.

I hate waiting.

With my story now at Analog for 171 days, I sympathize.

New game: who has the longest outstanding piece right now? Who has the longest cumulative wait for all stories right now?

According to Duotrope, my longest has currently been out 200 days, and my total cumulative wait is 563 days. I know some of you can top that easily.

http://nineandsixtyways.com/
Tools, Not Rules.
Martin L. Shoemaker
3rd Place Q1 V31
"Today I Am Paul", WSFA Small Press Award 2015, Nebula nomination 2015
Today I Am Carey from Baen
The Last Dance (#1 science fiction eBook on Amazon, October 2019) and The Last Campaign from 47North

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 2:07 pm
(@patrick-s-mcginnity)
Posts: 153
Bronze Star Member
 

I'm only in the 400s currently, though I have one 77 days past average, and I suspect it is not for a good reason (at least not good for me). See when I subbed, I realized just as I clicked Send that I had the wrong editor's name in the cover letter. I sent a follow up immediately apologizing. Then I queried a month after the average response time, but still nothing. It is a reprint I was hoping for, but still, even a "We automatically delete anything addressed to the wrong person, so please resubmit and go to the end of the line" would have been nice.

Patrick S. McGinnity
Mt. Pleasant/Beaver Island, Michigan

R x 3
Q2 2012 - HM
Look for "The Dubious Apotheosis of Baskin Gough" in the ARCANE II Anthology.

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 3:22 pm
(@gower21)
Posts: 757
Gold Member
 

My rant: Submissions that you never ever hear back from because you decided to take a chance on a "new" market that became dead in a few months. What a waste of a few months while they tease you along saying they are "still working on it" Silliness.

Next rant: That sales to certain markets are frowned upon by Science Fiction editors (Chicken Soup for the Soul) so I have to figure out if I should include it in a bio or not. Thanks Steven King. Thanks. You never even read my kick a$$ humor story in the anthology but you've left me to be judged forevermore if I decide to mention it as a past sale. All my other nonfiction sales are not worth mentioning.

Self-rant: What are you doing on the WOTF board??? Get the hell back on your laptop and keep writing. You have a novel, a short story, and a flash to write. Get to work. Now. What? Why are you still here. GO.

Geeze fine. I'm off...

Later guys!

Tina
http://www.smashedpicketfences.com

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 3:44 pm
(@martin-l-shoemaker)
Posts: 2135
Platinum Plus Moderator
Topic starter
 

I'm only in the 400s currently, though I have one 77 days past average, and I suspect it is not for a good reason (at least not good for me). See when I subbed, I realized just as I clicked Send that I had the wrong editor's name in the cover letter. I sent a follow up immediately apologizing. Then I queried a month after the average response time, but still nothing. It is a reprint I was hoping for, but still, even a "We automatically delete anything addressed to the wrong person, so please resubmit and go to the end of the line" would have been nice.

Heh. I won't embarrass anyone by naming names; but I once received the wrong rejection from a pretty major market. The editor sent me the rejection for a different author and a different story, then turned around and sent me the proper rejection and an apology. I suspect that, just as editors are human and make human mistakes, they know the same is true of us.

On the plus side, my proper rejection was MUCH more encouraging than the other author's!

http://nineandsixtyways.com/
Tools, Not Rules.
Martin L. Shoemaker
3rd Place Q1 V31
"Today I Am Paul", WSFA Small Press Award 2015, Nebula nomination 2015
Today I Am Carey from Baen
The Last Dance (#1 science fiction eBook on Amazon, October 2019) and The Last Campaign from 47North

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 3:55 pm
(@writetolive)
Posts: 224
Bronze Star Member
 

Seriously, Kary? That's very cool. Both of my subs to Lightspeed said 'didn't quite work for me.'

Still a form rejection, but... but... still!

Actually, those are stage 2 for Lightspeed. Top tier forms say "didn't quite win me over."

However, to cheer you up from that, check my story at AE. THAT was a "didn't quite work for me."

Michael Beers
Blog: Write To Live
Latest Out: Detroit Ex Nihilo at AESciFi
Now Available: Zion in For All Eternity: Tales of the Seven Deadly Sins (Dark Opus Press)

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 4:00 pm
(@patrick-s-mcginnity)
Posts: 153
Bronze Star Member
 

If the rant-threaders will indulge me for a moment longer, this whole feedback thing is why I like tiered rejections so much. Fantasy & Science Fiction has a system I adore (Lightspeed, too, though I cannot vouch for this personally).

Their rejects go like this:

1) ... "didn't grab my interest". This means the reader couldn't get into it. Whatever the problem is, it's apparent right off. Also means the reader probably didn't read past the beginning. A few paragraphs at most.

2) ...didn't hold my interest... This means that somewhere in the middle, broadly speaking, the reader got bored/confused / offended or in some other way turned off.

3) ... didn't quite work for me... This one is both frustrating and joy-inducing. "Didn't work" could mean lots of things. The fit was off, they already have stories like that. It's a fine story but it was too long/ too short, etc. BUT - the reader read it all the way through, which means it's probably a decent story, relatively speaking.

Hmm...really wishing my son hadn't destroyed my latest F & SF rejection letter before I even got to read it. My wife said it was a no, but had no more details for me than that. Also, it is a paper rejection, which are few and far between these days. I think I still have an old one signed by Marion Zimmer Bradley telling me my crappy story struck her more as horror than fantasy. Ah, the good old days...

Patrick S. McGinnity
Mt. Pleasant/Beaver Island, Michigan

R x 3
Q2 2012 - HM
Look for "The Dubious Apotheosis of Baskin Gough" in the ARCANE II Anthology.

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 4:15 pm
(@patrick-s-mcginnity)
Posts: 153
Bronze Star Member
 

Clarkesworld has a similar if less-nuanced tiered system.

From what I can tell, the standard is:
"Unfortunately, your story isn't quite what we're looking for right now."

vs. the near-miss:

"Unfortunately, your story was close, but not quite what we're looking for right now."

Patrick S. McGinnity
Mt. Pleasant/Beaver Island, Michigan

R x 3
Q2 2012 - HM
Look for "The Dubious Apotheosis of Baskin Gough" in the ARCANE II Anthology.

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 4:36 pm
(@martin-l-shoemaker)
Posts: 2135
Platinum Plus Moderator
Topic starter
 

Ah, the sweet sounds of Rejectomancy!

WRITE! WRITE! WRITE! etc.

http://nineandsixtyways.com/
Tools, Not Rules.
Martin L. Shoemaker
3rd Place Q1 V31
"Today I Am Paul", WSFA Small Press Award 2015, Nebula nomination 2015
Today I Am Carey from Baen
The Last Dance (#1 science fiction eBook on Amazon, October 2019) and The Last Campaign from 47North

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 4:46 pm
(@greenroom)
Posts: 55
Bronze Member
 

With my story now at Analog for 171 days, I sympathize.

New game: who has the longest outstanding piece right now? Who has the longest cumulative wait for all stories right now?

According to Duotrope, my longest has currently been out 200 days, and my total cumulative wait is 563 days. I know some of you can top that easily.

My cumulative wait total isn't that high, but I'm in a tie with you for longest outstanding piece. I have one at 200 days - 168 days past the average response time for that market. I queried a few months ago -- they do have it, or at least had it then. But, being the paranoid sort, I've already began to wonder if I somehow missed a rejection (not really possible since I get about 1 spam message every month in my writing account, unless I've recently taken up sleep deleting) or if the editor just *gasp* forgot he hadn't already sent out my rejection, marked it as handled in his records, and moved on...

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 5:01 pm
(@george-nik)
Posts: 494
Silver Star Member
 

Look, I don't want to make enemies on here. And I sure don't want to torpedo my writing career before it even started. I like you all. And many, if not most of you have experiences I can learn from. I was just looking to rant.

Peace? wotf008

Don't worry about it! It's just that editors wanted to rant, also.

George Nikolopoulos
WOTF: 1 SF, 1 SHM, 4 HM
Fiction (EN): 43 stories sold, 29 published
Fiction (GR): c.10 stories published & a children’s novel
Amazon Page

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 8:19 pm
(@george-nik)
Posts: 494
Silver Star Member
 

I once received the wrong rejection from a pretty major market. The editor sent me the rejection for a different author and a different story, then turned around and sent me the proper rejection and an apology.

But, being the paranoid sort, I've already began to wonder if I somehow missed a rejection (not really possible since I get about 1 spam message every month in my writing account, unless I've recently taken up sleep deleting) or if the editor just *gasp* forgot he hadn't already sent out my rejection, marked it as handled in his records, and moved on...

Well, you never know. Maybe your rejection was sent to Martin instead... wotf008

George Nikolopoulos
WOTF: 1 SF, 1 SHM, 4 HM
Fiction (EN): 43 stories sold, 29 published
Fiction (GR): c.10 stories published & a children’s novel
Amazon Page

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 8:38 pm
(@george-nik)
Posts: 494
Silver Star Member
 

New game: who has the longest outstanding piece right now? Who has the longest cumulative wait for all stories right now?

According to Duotrope, my longest has currently been out 200 days, and my total cumulative wait is 563 days. I know some of you can top that easily.

I am at 316 as of today. Longest is my Q1 and shortest is my Q2.
Not very long, but keep in mind that my first submission ever was on Dec 31st.

(Well, I'm not counting Greek markets. Or Greek-speaking international markets. Or English-speaking poetry markets)

George Nikolopoulos
WOTF: 1 SF, 1 SHM, 4 HM
Fiction (EN): 43 stories sold, 29 published
Fiction (GR): c.10 stories published & a children’s novel
Amazon Page

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 10:25 pm
(@thomaskcarpenter)
Posts: 441
Silver Star Member
 

New game: who has the longest outstanding piece right now? Who has the longest cumulative wait for all stories right now?

According to Duotrope, my longest has currently been out 200 days, and my total cumulative wait is 563 days. I know some of you can top that easily.

922 cumulative and 183 for the longest. I need to get my butt in gear and send out four stories that have recently been rejected, but too many things to do right now!

Thomas K Carpenter
http://www.thomaskcarpenter.com
SFx2, SHMx1, HMx12 (Pro'd Out - Q4 2016)
EQMM - Feb 2015 / Abyss & Apex - Issue 50

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 11:24 pm
(@martin-l-shoemaker)
Posts: 2135
Platinum Plus Moderator
Topic starter
 

Well, you never know. Maybe your rejection was sent to Martin instead... wotf008

Ha! Yep, and I've got all of your Q1 results in my spam folder, too!

http://nineandsixtyways.com/
Tools, Not Rules.
Martin L. Shoemaker
3rd Place Q1 V31
"Today I Am Paul", WSFA Small Press Award 2015, Nebula nomination 2015
Today I Am Carey from Baen
The Last Dance (#1 science fiction eBook on Amazon, October 2019) and The Last Campaign from 47North

 
Posted : April 2, 2012 11:42 pm
(@e-caimansands)
Posts: 872
Gold Member
 

I've looked at north of 10,000 submissions (maybe north of 15,000 -- I stopped counting at 5,000, and that was many years ago). I don't know if I ever passed over a story solely because:
"Your story didn't make it because it was poorly plotted."

Plotting is so fundamental to commercial fiction that if the plotting doesn't work, then there are very likely a whole lot else that's also lacking.

Well, yes, but I think I can write stories where everything is good except for the plot. Maybe I'm just odd wotf017 . Seriously. In my semi finalist story KD Wentworth bemoans the fact that my story "really has no plot".

Before getting SF that story got top tier rejections from Asimov's and Lightspeed too. More about that below...

SF x 1 (Extreeemely happy snappy gator)
HM x 9 (Happy snappy gator)
"Europa Spring" - buy from Amazon
The Happy Snappy Gator Bog! Er, Blog...

 
Posted : April 3, 2012 12:26 am
(@e-caimansands)
Posts: 872
Gold Member
 

Seriously, Kary? That's very cool. Both of my subs to Lightspeed said 'didn't quite work for me.'

Still a form rejection, but... but... still!

Actually, those are stage 2 for Lightspeed. Top tier forms say "didn't quite win me over."

Yes, my semi finalist got the "didn't quite win me over" from Lightspeed. And it got "The story is nicely done... I look forward to your next one, though," from Asimov's.

All my other efforts have been form rejected everywhere! wotf019

SF x 1 (Extreeemely happy snappy gator)
HM x 9 (Happy snappy gator)
"Europa Spring" - buy from Amazon
The Happy Snappy Gator Bog! Er, Blog...

 
Posted : April 3, 2012 12:37 am
 hlf
(@hlf)
Posts: 45
Advanced Member
 

New game: who has the longest outstanding piece right now? Who has the longest cumulative wait for all stories right now?

Longest out: 301 days
Cumulative: 1723 days (which is 33 subs, including 3 WOTF)

Thanks, Martin, for helping me find new ways to torture myself. I'm going to stop staring at numbers and go stare at some words now.

HL Fullerton

 
Posted : April 3, 2012 12:48 am
(@solanavi77)
Posts: 33
Advanced Member
 

A story I sent to "Dark Wisdom" has been out for over 2 months now. I am beginning to wonder if the magazine is defunct. I say this since I submitted a story to them the first day of their reading period. And their title page has old information. But SFWA still has them listed as a qualifying market. So who knows.

"I'm your Huckleberry" -Doc Holiday, from Tombstone

 
Posted : April 3, 2012 2:15 am
(@writetolive)
Posts: 224
Bronze Star Member
 

Longest out for me is 252 at Tor.com.

Combined...well...1,177 days. 2 were recent subs, so they don't count towards the total, but that's a lot for 34 subs (really, 33, but I simsubed one).

Michael Beers
Blog: Write To Live
Latest Out: Detroit Ex Nihilo at AESciFi
Now Available: Zion in For All Eternity: Tales of the Seven Deadly Sins (Dark Opus Press)

 
Posted : April 3, 2012 6:11 am
(@martin-l-shoemaker)
Posts: 2135
Platinum Plus Moderator
Topic starter
 

Rant! Rant! Rant!

My Semi-Finalist just came back from Analog after 14 days. Grrr...

(On the other hand, my other story there is at 172 days and counting...)

Off to Duotrope!

http://nineandsixtyways.com/
Tools, Not Rules.
Martin L. Shoemaker
3rd Place Q1 V31
"Today I Am Paul", WSFA Small Press Award 2015, Nebula nomination 2015
Today I Am Carey from Baen
The Last Dance (#1 science fiction eBook on Amazon, October 2019) and The Last Campaign from 47North

 
Posted : April 3, 2012 6:46 am
(@katsincommand)
Posts: 230
Bronze Star Member
 

::delurks::

Dark Discvoeries - 480
Analog - 244

Kind of takes the sting off a 90-100 day WOTF wait. <g>

Dawn Bonanno
http://www.dmbonanno.com

SF 2 / HM 6 / R 16 / Total 24 Entries

 
Posted : April 3, 2012 8:43 am
 MJNL
(@mjnl)
Posts: 505
Silver Star Member
 

Hmm... I'd like to do a rant about writers who seek instant gratification and can't figure out why they're not published after two months of trying... but that might be inappropriate (dealing with someone like this on another forum--ugh).

~Marina

WotF Winner Q1 2012 (Vol. 29)

WotF Finalist Q2 2010 (Vol. 27)
WotF Finalist Q4 2011 (Vol. 28)
http://lostetter.wordpress.com/
http://twitter.com/#!/MarinaLostetter

 
Posted : April 3, 2012 8:59 am
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