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Dustin Adams
(@axeminister)
Gold Member
Posts: 995

Scott,

good practice for 3rd limited is just writing one character. Look at Beneath the Surface of Two Kills. I read that over and over and over.

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Posted : June 5, 2021 9:21 am
Wulf Moon
(@wulfmoon)
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Posted by: @scott_m_sands

I usually write in 3rd person POV, rarely 1st POV. But I naturally sway toward 3rd omniscient. Still working on how to really get some of the same meaning across and staying in 3rd limited. have tried to get across some world building info through dialogue but I have to be careful to avoid As You Know Bob. 

https://www.writersofthefuture.com/forum/the-contest-quarterly-topics-and-other-items/wulf-moons-super-secrets-workshop-challenge/paged/3/#post-24950

In case Forumites don’t know what As You Know Bobs or Maid and Butler dialogue is, here’s the Super Secrets’ lesson.

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Posted : June 5, 2021 11:24 am
Scott_M_Sands
(@scott_m_sands)
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Posts: 158

@axeminister

Thanks, Dustin. Will do.

"Many people will tell you that you can't write. Let no one say that you don't." -Ken Rand
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Posted : June 6, 2021 6:39 am
Cray Dimensional
(@craydimensional)
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Posts: 152
Posted by: @wulfmoon
Posted by: @scott_m_sands

I usually write in 3rd person POV, rarely 1st POV. But I naturally sway toward 3rd omniscient. Still working on how to really get some of the same meaning across and staying in 3rd limited. have tried to get across some world building info through dialogue but I have to be careful to avoid As You Know Bob. 

https://www.writersofthefuture.com/forum/the-contest-quarterly-topics-and-other-items/wulf-moons-super-secrets-workshop-challenge/paged/3/#post-24950

In case Forumites don’t know what As You Know Bobs or Maid and Butler dialogue is, here’s the Super Secrets’ lesson.

I was going to ask that.

Small steps add up to miles.
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Posted : June 6, 2021 5:51 pm
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Scott_M_Sands
(@scott_m_sands)
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Posts: 158

@craydimensional

As you're already aware Cray, Wulf's page will will summarise this much better than I could and explain that it's about not using dialogue in an unrealistic way to reveal details of the story.

And as I know Scott, you probably don't do this anyway. Good to check, though.

"Many people will tell you that you can't write. Let no one say that you don't." -Ken Rand
V36-37: R x6
V38: R, HM, P

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Posted : June 6, 2021 6:08 pm
RETreasure
(@rschibler)
Silver Star Member
Posts: 745

I encourage every writer to get ahold of the Turkey City Lexicon and learn it well. It covers a ton of things I see in critiques regularly, and is a good basis for understanding common mistakes. 

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Posted : June 20, 2021 12:47 pm
Scott_M_Sands
(@scott_m_sands)
Bronze Star Member
Posts: 158

@rschibler

Looked it up, thanks. I liked the simple definitions.

'Fuzz' and 'The Rug Jerk' are good reminders for me.

"Many people will tell you that you can't write. Let no one say that you don't." -Ken Rand
V36-37: R x6
V38: R, HM, P

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Posted : June 21, 2021 7:53 am
storysinger
(@storysinger)
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Posts: 880

The disturbing thing about reading articles like this is seeing things I'm guilty of.

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Posted : June 21, 2021 1:52 pm
DoctorJest
(@doctorjest)
Silver Member
Posts: 361
Posted by: @rschibler

I encourage every writer to get ahold of the Turkey City Lexicon and learn it well. It covers a ton of things I see in critiques regularly, and is a good basis for understanding common mistakes. 

I've never read this before, but the "Poor Me" story set me laughing a lot, and made me feel deeply sorry for the poor slush-readers who I can only imagine encounter this sort of nonsense on a far more regular basis than I do...

I'm not guilty of most of these now, but I've been guilty of some before. Not-simultaneous used to blight my work, and to this day it still feels correct to me, which I suspect means I've seen it used in other writers' fiction a lot, as my gut feeling about right and wrong in writing is very much driven by the things I've read. That's one I probably still need watch out for, as I think those little poisonous seeds have been deeply planted.

(Legitimately, though, reading this actually made me feel better about one of the mechanics I'd used in my Q3, which--now that I think on it more closely--is very much not an "As you know Bob" passage after all, which probably explains why it didn't feel like utter trash to me while I was editing it.) 

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Posted : June 21, 2021 9:19 pm
Joel C. Scoberg
(@joel-c-scoberg)
Advanced Member
Posts: 38
Posted by: @rschibler

I encourage every writer to get ahold of the Turkey City Lexicon and learn it well. It covers a ton of things I see in critiques regularly, and is a good basis for understanding common mistakes. 

As you know, I have never read this before either but found it to be a very useful set of pitfalls and "shortcuts" to avoid. I feel I am guilty of a few, especially "Not-simultaneous". "AM/FM" made me laugh but mostly because I did not know what FM was going to stand for and it jumped out and struck me like, well, like you'd expect supercharged "FM" to strike.

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Posted : June 24, 2021 2:45 pm
Morgan
(@morgan-broadhead)
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Posts: 129
Posted by: @time

Like, I guess, many, after seeing Wulf  say that WotF judges prefer third person pov, I think – yeah, but the number of 1st person winning entries is high.

Flash Fiction Magazine has a free course at the moment. FREE How to Write Flash Fiction Crash Course | Flash Fiction Magazine It’s brief and okay. Pretty well seen it all before.

However, what they have to say about 1st v 3rd is interesting -

Like first-person, third-person limited is close and personal, but because there is some distance established between the language of the story itself and the character, it’s easier to describe what’s happening using concrete description and imaginable action.

But here’s the kicker: it then becomes harder to tell or explain why a character is doing something. And this is a key insight into writing compelling flash fiction, because when a character acts in a story without explanation—or, in other words, is unpredictable—the reader will engage more deeply to try and figure out why.

(I'm going to presume they don't mind me quoting a little from their course since it's free and I'm effectively promoting it).

They also say - The secret ingredient to writing great stories is getting feedback from professional editors and other writers who are learning just like you. (I'm not very good at doing this.)

I think it all comes down to: know your market. Flash fiction is very intimate. I've both subscribed and submitted to FFO in the past and can say first person present works very well for that medium. Exceptions exist for every rule, of course. But when the primary judges/editors say they prefer one POV over another, it's good advice to heed that preference for the best shot at success.

 

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Posted : June 29, 2021 1:19 pm
Dustin Adams
(@axeminister)
Gold Member
Posts: 995

My wife is in the other room reading a first person present novel to my son. Out loud it just doesn't sound right. Maybe because I am so familiar with the reader's voice and being in space doesn't sound right, but the whole thing doesn't sound right aloud.

Maybe that's part of the whole truth to story being in 3rd person. Anyone can read a story about someone else, right? A fireside tale. But probably more difficult to suspend disbelief when it's 1PP read aloud.

Interesting...

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Posted : September 3, 2021 11:21 am
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Morgan
(@morgan-broadhead)
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Posts: 129

One of the best stories I ever read — easily among my Top 10 — is Lauren Oliver's Delirium trilogy. Written in 1st person, I felt like it was totally absorbing and personal. Just a really fantastic and well-told story, and I thought Oliver pulled the narrative off masterfully.

The story, I think, determines the POV. I've written in both first and third. Some stories just "sound" better one way or the other inside my head.

"If you can do it for joy, you can do it forever."
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Posted : September 3, 2021 11:40 am
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Disgruntled Peony
(@disgruntledpeony)
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Posts: 1113
Posted by: @axeminister

My wife is in the other room reading a first person present novel to my son. Out loud it just doesn't sound right. Maybe because I am so familiar with the reader's voice and being in space doesn't sound right, but the whole thing doesn't sound right aloud.

Maybe that's part of the whole truth to story being in 3rd person. Anyone can read a story about someone else, right? A fireside tale. But probably more difficult to suspend disbelief when it's 1PP read aloud.

Interesting...

Interesting... I tend to think in first person present tense, so it reads naturally to me, but I haven't read it aloud often.

If you are in difficulties with a book, try the element of surprise: attack it at an hour when it isn't expecting it. ~ H.G. Wells
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Posted : September 3, 2021 6:36 pm
czing
(@czing)
Bronze Star Member
Posts: 196
Posted by: @rschibler

I encourage every writer to get ahold of the Turkey City Lexicon and learn it well. It covers a ton of things I see in critiques regularly, and is a good basis for understanding common mistakes. 

Not-simultaneous was the one that jumped out at me as something I do a lot of (as others here have also mentioned).

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v38 Q1 - HM; Q2 -SHM; Q3 - P

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Posted : September 18, 2021 5:38 pm
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