Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

I think about ten years ago (when I started seriously working on my writing to make sense and communicate better), I got to a point where I actually starting thinking with some words--which I'd never done before. I find it interesting that it took learning how words work and fit together the proper way to finally get some language sneaking into my brain.

In the pictures vs. words vein, I often think in sound-words--my voice talking or imagining other people talking--and pictures together. I don't like it too quiet in my head. I also like hearing my main character's voice in my head when I'm writing their experiences or what they're saying as opposed to just seeing a picture or seeing words in my mind. I get writer's block when I can't "hear" my characters speaking.

I'm totally with gower21 on this one, though: only when I've been writing a lot or thinking about a story part that's difficult and I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to put it down on the page do I start to think in type-words. I hadn't really seen a lot of type-words in my thoughts until I was thinking about them a lot technically.

I hadn't really considered the difference between words and language in this whole discussion of thoughts. Do people really dream/think in words? As in the physical letters that make up written language appearing in your mind's eye? Even when I'm writing, I think in sounds--in voices. Language. Written words are just a stand-in for spoken language, imo.

I don't read in my dreams either, probably because that would require the ability and/or predilection to think in words, which I don't. (It seems funny to me hearing you guys talking about writing in a dream or reading a really good book. I might dream about the act of writing, but never the actual story.) Even if my dream self needs to, say, navigate an unfamiliar setting, I generally just wander around until the place starts making sense. Often, as the dream progresses, I'll come back to the same hallway or door or room multiple times and have a different reason for being there each time.

I hadn't really considered the difference between words and language in this whole discussion of thoughts. Do people really dream/think in words? As in the physical letters that make up written language appearing in your mind's eye? Even when I'm writing, I think in sounds--in voices. Language. Written words are just a stand-in for spoken language, imo.

I don't read in my dreams either, probably because that would require the ability and/or predilection to think in words, which I don't. (It seems funny to me hearing you guys talking about writing in a dream or reading a really good book. I might dream about the act of writing, but never the actual story.) Even if my dream self needs to, say, navigate an unfamiliar setting, I generally just wander around until the place starts making sense. Often, as the dream progresses, I'll come back to the same hallway or door or room multiple times and have a different reason for being there each time.

Oh, thank you. I thought I was nuts for a moment. I don't see words or numbers ( though once I partially woke up too soon to see a translucent line of binary numbers flowing through the air in a line into my head... it got better); Like you, I hear them - like I'm talking to myself. I'm talking these words right now as I'm typing the letters. When I'm writing I add the images as if I'm watching a movie, long view, close up. I usually have a background song playing in my head. When I hear other songs or a phrase that reminds me of a lyric fragment, it changes. Typically, its a song I wish would go away! I usually shuts off when I'm writing or focused. It's never totally quiet in there. As far as dreams, I have dreamed of both reading and writing but don't see the words on the page or paper. I have woken in the middle of the night to jot down the brilliant paragraph or phrase in a dream only to wake the next morning to find it's a bizarre jumble.. like dreams are. When younger, I had a set of dreams that I would dream over and over. I still remember them, but haven't had them in decades.

When I said 'think in words'--I meant language, rather than text. Though if I'm thinking really hard about it, I kind of see the words too, but that's secondary to hearing them.

And when I read words, I can't not hear them. Which is why I kind of don't understand how one speed reads. I read at marginally faster than I speak, because that's the most practical, enjoyable rate for me to hear the words at.

Another interesting difference between my internal narrative and my husband’s: When reading fiction, I hear narratives and character speech in some amalgamation of my own voice, as though I were reading aloud. He hears other people's voices, never his own.

And when I read words, I can't not hear them. Which is why I kind of don't understand how one speed reads. I read at marginally faster than I speak, because that's the most practical, enjoyable rate for me to hear the words at.

Well, it appears that a critical factor is 'eyespan'. This is how many words you can take in with one focussing of the eyes. When we are taught to read as children, we may well follow along a line with a finger, pointing to a word and then pronouncing it aloud. This involves focussing on every word, and of course in the very early stages a lot of these words will be one syllable - '"The cat sat on the mat' will involve six focusses and therefore will be read very slowly. Quite often the transition between reading aloud and 'reading to oneself' is managed rather badly. Many adults therefore continue to 'verbalise' - that is to speak the words in their heads, focussing on each word just as they did when reading aloud.

If you think about it, this is redundant. The brain recognises the word on the page and then instructs the speech centre to pronounce it (silently) in order for us to 'hear' it in our heads. From the point where the brain recognised the word, the verbalisation process is just a waste of time and slows down your reading speed.

Consider that whilst we focus six times on six one syllable words, a six syllable word - 'Totalitarian' - should be possible with only one focus. In principle there is not much difference between the two in terms of the number of items to be recognised by the brain. The skill is to get out of the habit of requiring a refocus every time you see a space between words.

Here endeth the second lesson.

Did I ever tell you how I once nearly got the gold medal in a boring competition? (A boring competition for old bores.)

And when I read words, I can't not hear them. Which is why I kind of don't understand how one speed reads. I read at marginally faster than I speak, because that's the most practical, enjoyable rate for me to hear the words at.

Well, it appears that a critical factor is 'eyespan'. This is how many words you can take in with one focussing of the eyes. When we are taught to read as children, we may well follow along a line with a finger, pointing to a word and then pronouncing it aloud. This involves focussing on every word, and of course in the very early stages a lot of these words will be one syllable - '"The cat sat on the mat' will involve six focusses and therefore will be read very slowly. Quite often the transition between reading aloud and 'reading to oneself' is managed rather badly. Many adults therefore continue to 'verbalise' - that is to speak the words in their heads, focussing on each word just as they did when reading aloud.

If you think about it, this is redundant. The brain recognises the word on the page and then instructs the speech centre to pronounce it (silently) in order for us to 'hear' it in our heads. From the point where the brain recognised the word, the verbalisation process is just a waste of time and slows down your reading speed.

Consider that whilst we focus six times on six one syllable words, a six syllable word - 'Totalitarian' - should be possible with only one focus. In principle there is not much difference between the two in terms of the number of items to be recognised by the brain. The skill is to get out of the habit of requiring a refocus every time you see a space between words.

Here endeth the second lesson.

Did I ever tell you how I once nearly got the gold medal in a boring competition? (A boring competition for old bores.)

I think that Ishmael is correct -- or at least mostly correct -- but leaves out something very fundamental in the difference between slow-reading and speed-reading.

>
> ... From the point where the brain recognised the word, the verbalisation process is just a waste of time and slows down your reading speed.
>

This is exactly correct.

However . . .

>
> ... it appears that a critical factor is 'eyespan'. ...
>

This is not completely correct.

Here's what I mean. When you see an "Exit" sign, you don't say: "That's an 'E' followed by an 'x,' an 'i,' and a 't'; oh, that means the sign says 'Exit.' " You see the entire word, all at once, and know that it says "Exit."

Likewise, it's not necessary to read each word in a sentence or paragraph, individually, to know what the sentence or paragraph says. With practice, you can take in the entire sentence or paragraph and know what it says.

It's not even necessary to read the words in a sentence or paragraph in order to understand what it says. Your brain takes it all in and makes sense of it, automatically.

For example, we all understood what Jedi master Yoda said when he spoke, even though he ordered the words in his sentences differently than English-speakers normally do. (Yoda-speak is, for the most part, English-language vocabulary imposed on Japanese grammar. Instead of the standard English {subject}-{verb}-{object}, Japanese sentences typically have {subject}-{object}-{verb} or {object}-{subject}-{verb}.)

Given this, it's not necessary to read the first line on a page left to right, then the second line left to right, then the third line left to right, etc.

You can glance and the first line left to right, then glance at the second line right to left, the third line left to right, the fourth line right to left, etc. And again, with practice, you can take it all in and understand what it says.

And then the next step is to glance at several lines at once from left to right, then the following several lines from right to left, etc.

And the more you practice, the larger number of lines you can take in with each left-to-right and right-to-left eye movement.

Here ends my synopsis of the principles of Evelyn Wood Reading Dynamics.

I took the Evelyn Wood Reading Dynamics course in the mid-1970s, during the summer between high school and college.

I can read fast -- really fast.

However, when I read fiction, I always slow-read -- reading each word in order, reading maybe two or three times speaking speed.

Reading fiction any faster kinda defeats the purpose.

If you want to speed-read fiction, why even bother. Just read a detailed summary. You'll get the essentials of what happened, though you'll miss out on the whole reading experience that makes reading fiction worthwhile.

Speed-reading if for the purpose of absorbing information. Enjoying fiction pretty much demands slow-reading.

Further, I read fiction submissions even slower than I read published fiction, reading at close to speaking speed. If the line-level writing is good, it should sound really good when spoken. And the slower you read, the more you notice the smoothness or clunkiness of the writing. While smooth writing isn't nearly as important as storytelling quality, it is still important enough to matter.

Sam

Reading fiction any faster kinda defeats the purpose.

If you want to speed-read fiction, why even bother. Just read a detailed summary. You'll get the essentials of what happened, though you'll miss out on the whole reading experience that makes reading fiction worthwhile.

Speed-reading if for the purpose of absorbing information. Enjoying fiction pretty much demands slow-reading.

Further, I read fiction submissions even slower than I read published fiction, reading at close to speaking speed. If the line-level writing is good, it should sound really good when spoken. And the slower you read, the more you notice the smoothness or clunkiness of the writing. While smooth writing isn't nearly as important as storytelling quality, it is still important enough to matter.

=============================================================================================

(somehow I screwed up my 'quote')
Anyway...
Since I am married to a poet, I pay particular attention to the way my words sound as well as what they mean. I find slipping in a couplet now and then is like hitting the landing after a vault. You can't appreciate that if you're speed reading. So, I agree. Fiction needs to be savored. Choosing the proper words can conjure up images that mere storytelling cannot. Obviously, it must all work together. I'd rather see a slider clip the outside corner than a fastball down the center.

Wow, I can't believe that only a couple weeks ago the conversation was still going on on this string! Not sure if anyone will get this, but here goes anyway:

I finally got my hands on a copy of Volume XXIX and have read enough to be at peace with the final results (those results not including me, i mean).

And I just read yours, Tina. NICE WORK!

Wow, I can't believe that only a couple weeks ago the conversation was still going on on this string! Not sure if anyone will get this, but here goes anyway:

I finally got my hands on a copy of Volume XXIX and have read enough to be at peace with the final results (those results not including me, i mean).

And I just read yours, Tina. NICE WORK!

We lurk. We lurk.

Wow, I can't believe that only a couple weeks ago the conversation was still going on on this string! Not sure if anyone will get this, but here goes anyway:

I finally got my hands on a copy of Volume XXIX and have read enough to be at peace with the final results (those results not including me, i mean).

And I just read yours, Tina. NICE WORK!

We lurk. We lurk.

I guess so! Wher ein Ohio are you from? (have I asked you that before?) I'm from Toledo-Sandusky-ish region. Generally northwest ohio, closer to Toledo than Cleveland. But I also went to school in Columbus for a couple years. Now I'm stranded in south Texas... get me out of here...

Wow, I can't believe that only a couple weeks ago the conversation was still going on on this string! Not sure if anyone will get this, but here goes anyway:

I finally got my hands on a copy of Volume XXIX and have read enough to be at peace with the final results (those results not including me, i mean).

And I just read yours, Tina. NICE WORK!

We lurk. We lurk.

I guess so! Wher ein Ohio are you from? (have I asked you that before?) I'm from Toledo-Sandusky-ish region. Generally northwest ohio, closer to Toledo than Cleveland. But I also went to school in Columbus for a couple years. Now I'm stranded in south Texas... get me out of here...

HA! I was born in Columbus. Love Columbus. But I'm in shriveling Lima. (pronounced like the bean for non-Ohio
people who read this). Lima was once a mighty city nicknamed Little Chicago with opera and crime bosses and oil fields and the birthplace of Standard Oil (SOHIO). Now nearly all manufacturing has left and the mansions on Market Street are being sold for less than 200k. Lima is right on I-75 an hour north of Dayton and 90 minutes south of Toledo. I work near Toledo in Perrysburg at Walt Churchill's Market as a pharmacist (part-time). It has a lot of organic foods, but their local grass-fed beef and their yearly crop of Moral mushrooms are special.

... holds out an ear of white sweet corn the length of a forearm....

Maybe I can tempt you home by saying that we are having a uniquely beautiful summer. The grass (which is usually crunchy brown by now) is a lush green. We've had plenty of rain this summer, but not the flooding down south. It's said by local farmers that the corn crop is the best in 25 years. The soybeans are waist-high on a tall man. It looks like June on steroids. The high temperatures have ranged from the low 70's to the mid-80's in AUGUST. Not paradise, but for Ohio about as good as it gets. Too bad jobs are a bit scarce.

I take it that things are not as pleasant. I feel for you. Let's just say north and,especially, south Texas are NOT on my bucket list of places I'd like to visit. I always imagine cactus and scorpions and a blazing sun when I think of Texas.

HA! I was born in Columbus. Love Columbus. But I'm in shriveling Lima. (pronounced like the bean for non-Ohio
people who read this). Lima was once a mighty city nicknamed Little Chicago with opera and crime bosses and oil fields and the birthplace of Standard Oil (SOHIO). Now nearly all manufacturing has left and the mansions on Market Street are being sold for less than 200k. Lima is right on I-75 an hour north of Dayton and 90 minutes south of Toledo. I work near Toledo in Perrysburg at Walt Churchill's Market as a pharmacist (part-time). It has a lot of organic foods, but their local grass-fed beef and their yearly crop of Moral mushrooms are special.

... holds out an ear of white sweet corn the length of a forearm....

Maybe I can tempt you home by saying that we are having a uniquely beautiful summer. The grass (which is usually crunchy brown by now) is a lush green. We've had plenty of rain this summer, but not the flooding down south. It's said by local farmers that the corn crop is the best in 25 years. The soybeans are waist-high on a tall man. It looks like June on steroids. The high temperatures have ranged from the low 70's to the mid-80's in AUGUST. Not paradise, but for Ohio about as good as it gets. Too bad jobs are a bit scarce.

I take it that things are not as pleasant. I feel for you. Let's just say north and,especially, south Texas are NOT on my bucket list of places I'd like to visit. I always imagine cactus and scorpions and a blazing sun when I think of Texas.

Oh, you don't have to tempt me, I'm ready! Unfortunately the Navy would disagree if I decided to up and move. Sounds wonderful, though. I have heard it's been a very very rainy year, but since it's a drought down here, I'd stand outside all day everyday!

I didn't know all that about Lima, except for the decaying part. I have a buddy there and one in Wapakeneta. I also went to school for a year in Ada (couldn't afford more than one at ONU). Then i tranferred to BGSU for a BFA in writing (which so far hasn't made me rich and/or famous... which is why i later went to Capital in Columbus for a nursing degree). I'm from Fremont/Clyde, which is 45 minutes due east from BG.

Yes, i miss home. Of course, if i moved back i'd be feeling the wandering itch again a few years later...

Sorry for anyone who doesn't care about how nice Ohio is. Then again, I don't think anyone else is reading this topic thread anymore anyway...

Oh? Ya wanna bet? Some of us may have briefly stayed near Youngstown and even interviewed for jobs in the area. Problem was in those dim and distant days no-one around there seemed able to understand how I had managed to obtain a BA (hons) from Oxford without being certified as completing a certain number of 'hours' and I had no idea what they were talking about.

Oh? Ya wanna bet? Some of us may have briefly stayed near Youngstown and even interviewed for jobs in the area. Problem was in those dim and distant days no-one around there seemed able to understand how I had managed to obtain a BA (hons) from Oxford without being certified as completing a certain number of 'hours' and I had no idea what they were talking about.

Well, Youngstown is *kinda* Ohio, a little too far east in my opinion, so i wouldn't take their confusion to heart. Don't go for Cincinnati either -- they're more like Kentucky than Ohio...

Oh, you don't have to tempt me, I'm ready! Unfortunately the Navy would disagree if I decided to up and move. Sounds wonderful, though. I have heard it's been a very very rainy year, but since it's a drought down here, I'd stand outside all day everyday!

I didn't know all that about Lima, except for the decaying part. I have a buddy there and one in Wapakeneta. I also went to school for a year in Ada (couldn't afford more than one at ONU). Then i tranferred to BGSU for a BFA in writing (which so far hasn't made me rich and/or famous... which is why i later went to Capital in Columbus for a nursing degree). I'm from Fremont/Clyde, which is 45 minutes due east from BG.

Yes, i miss home. Of course, if i moved back i'd be feeling the wandering itch again a few years later...

Sorry for anyone who doesn't care about how nice Ohio is. Then again, I don't think anyone else is reading this topic thread anymore anyway...

The NAVY? In a drought. In Texas. On the Gulf, I suppose. Man, that just sucks.
Wapakoneta, hometown of Neil Armstrong. Did you hear he was buried at sea? Never could figure that one out.
Ohio doesn't have much water between the Ohio River and Lake Erie. Pretty dry in between. There is Indian Lake. Just keep it in mind if you're looking to find a place in the summer sun. Why would a civilian from Ohio want to be buried at sea? - shrugs -

Dear Sir,

When can I expect to receive my trophy? I entered this little contest of yours in April of last year.

This waiting reminds of the week I spent in the trenches with dreadful dysentery. The corned beef was a little old.
Still, it made me stronger, wiser, and cleansed my innards.

Yours expectantly,

Brigadier Sir Charles Arthur Strong (Mrs.)

p.s. - Carry on!

The NAVY? In a drought. In Texas. On the Gulf, I suppose. Man, that just sucks.
Wapakoneta, hometown of Neil Armstrong. Did you hear he was buried at sea? Never could figure that one out.
Ohio doesn't have much water between the Ohio River and Lake Erie. Pretty dry in between. There is Indian Lake. Just keep it in mind if you're looking to find a place in the summer sun. Why would a civilian from Ohio want to be buried at sea? - shrugs -

No, not on the Gulf. I wish. I'm in San Antonio at Fort Sam Houston, a formerly Army, now Air Force base. Long story. I'm an instructor here training Navy and AF students at a new joint school. And ready to move on! Texas ain't my bag.

And a salute to you, Brigadier Sir Mrs!!

(Note to self: avoid the corned beef...)

No, not on the Gulf. I wish. I'm in San Antonio at Fort Sam Houston, a formerly Army, now Air Force base. Long story. I'm an instructor here training Navy and AF students at a new joint school. And ready to move on! Texas ain't my bag.

San Antonio? Will we see you at WorldCon?

And congratulations on the 4Kth post on this thread!

No, not on the Gulf. I wish. I'm in San Antonio at Fort Sam Houston, a formerly Army, now Air Force base. Long story. I'm an instructor here training Navy and AF students at a new joint school. And ready to move on! Texas ain't my bag.

San Antonio? Will we see you at WorldCon?

And congratulations on the 4Kth post on this thread!

4000th??

WORLDCON????

Why am I always the last to know about these things...???

(Guess I better take my head out of the sand and look around once in a while.)

No, not on the Gulf. I wish. I'm in San Antonio at Fort Sam Houston, a formerly Army, now Air Force base. Long story. I'm an instructor here training Navy and AF students at a new joint school. And ready to move on! Texas ain't my bag.

San Antonio? Will we see you at WorldCon?

And congratulations on the 4Kth post on this thread!

4000th??

WORLDCON????

Why am I always the last to know about these things...???

(Guess I better take my head out of the sand and look around once in a while.)

Well, as a programmer, I think of a K as precisely 2^10, or 1024. 4K is thus 4096. After enough years in this business, 4096 is a "round number" to me. And that was the number on your post!

And dude, yes, WorldCon is coming to your town next week! If your duties allow, we would love to see you there. We're having a WAIOTF party on Friday night!

No, not on the Gulf. I wish. I'm in San Antonio at Fort Sam Houston, a formerly Army, now Air Force base. Long story. I'm an instructor here training Navy and AF students at a new joint school. And ready to move on! Texas ain't my bag.

San Antonio? Will we see you at WorldCon?

And congratulations on the 4Kth post on this thread!

4000th??

WORLDCON????

Why am I always the last to know about these things...???

(Guess I better take my head out of the sand and look around once in a while.)

Okay, just took a quick peek at the website. How do I miss these things???

I'll tell you how. The San Antonio TV news doesn't cover antyhing until AFTER it happens. same thing happened with a mini-comicon here -- saw it on the news on MONDAY after it was over!

Looks pricey... Is there any particular day/event really worth while. I see the Hugos are going on (holy moly!!!) but something tells me you can't just stroll into that. Any advice on how to proceed???

Well, as a programmer, I think of a K as precisely 2^10, or 1024. 4K is thus 4096. After enough years in this business, 4096 is a "round number" to me. And that was the number on your post!

And dude, yes, WorldCon is coming to your town next week! If your duties allow, we would love to see you there. We're having a WAIOTF party on Friday night!

Which Friday?? I actually take the watch this friday (23rd) and have it for a week, so limited on my partying, but i'm guessing it's next week. I'd love to finally meet up with some of you guys!

Well, as a programmer, I think of a K as precisely 2^10, or 1024. 4K is thus 4096. After enough years in this business, 4096 is a "round number" to me. And that was the number on your post!

And dude, yes, WorldCon is coming to your town next week! If your duties allow, we would love to see you there. We're having a WAIOTF party on Friday night!

Which Friday?? I actually take the watch this friday (23rd) and have it for a week, so limited on my partying, but i'm guessing it's next week. I'd love to finally meet up with some of you guys!

The 30th. Time not determined yet, probably 6 to collapse.

They include day passes for lower prices, depending on the day. The Hugo's are Sunday (not Saturday like I originally posted), so that's the most expensive at $75. But since you're military (and thank you!), the price is half off for the whole con or nearly half off for day passes.

Which Friday?? I actually take the watch this friday (23rd) and have it for a week, so limited on my partying, but i'm guessing it's next week. I'd love to finally meet up with some of you guys!

The 30th. Time not determined yet, probably 6 to collapse.

They include day passes for lower prices, depending on the day. The Hugo's are Sunday (not Saturday like I originally posted), so that's the most expensive at $75. But since you're military (and thank you!), the price is half off for the whole con or nearly half off for day passes.

Awesome! Keep me posted about the shin-dig for sure. And I'll have to do some con research. Half off sounds more doable and I'd love to check it out. As I indicated, i keep missing these things, and this is definitely one worth catching!

(And thanks for the back-up PM, Martin!)

say, uh... i wanted to update my avatar but damned if i can figure out how... only sems to accept a URL for uploading? but i don't have a URL dedicated to a single 100x100 image... dont remember how i got the last one on here.

Get your WORLDCON Party details here!

With all the threads Tina hit, I'm shocked she missed this one!

This is the thread that never ends!
It just goes on and on my friends!
Some people started posting here, not knowing what it was;
And they'll continue posting here forever just because

This is the thread that never ends!
It just goes on and on my friends!
Some people started posting here, not knowing what it was;
And they'll continue posting here forever just because...

Party details!

Marriott Rivercenter
Room #3536
Starts: 9:00 p.m.
Ends: The Future!

Party details!

Marriott Rivercenter
Room #3536
Starts: 9:00 p.m.
Ends: The Future!

Doesn't start till 9, eh? hmmm... I'm not sure I can be downtown that late. I'm an old man! the orderlies are checking beds by then....

Party details!

Marriott Rivercenter
Room #3536
Starts: 9:00 p.m.
Ends: The Future!

Doesn't start till 9, eh? hmmm... I'm not sure I can be downtown that late. I'm an old man! the orderlies are checking beds by then....

There's also a WAIOTF panel at 2. Many of the same crowd will be there (but without the beer).