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Discussion: Q3 Volume 39

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DoctorJest
(@doctorjest)
Posts: 713
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Posted by: @scribblesatdusk

It's a wonder I got anything in for Q3 at all so at least no twitching for me when results are near at hand for this quarter.

Heh, the last time I was convinced my story was terrible and wouldn't place at all, I got a Finalist berth. So I have my fingers crossed that you're as bad at predictions as I am.

DQ:0 / R:0 / RWC:0 / HM:11 / SHM:6 / SF:1 / F:1
Submitted for Q1.V40 and Q2.V40
Last four: SHM • SHM • SF • HM
Revised SHM ('Ashwright') at PodCastle

 
Posted : August 10, 2022 5:37 pm
Wahlquistj
(@wahlquistj)
Posts: 37
Bronze Star Member
 

I wrote this one specifically for the contest, so fingers crossed!

V33- SF
V38- SHM, HM
V39- HM,P

 
Posted : August 10, 2022 11:32 pm
JVAshley, N.V. Haskell, Anna X and 2 people reacted
David Hankins
(@lost_bard)
Posts: 413
Gold Member
 
Posted by: @wahlquistj

I wrote this one specifically for the contest, so fingers crossed!

Targeting your market. I like it! Have you read the most recent volume to see the kinds of stories that win? I dug into Volume 38 about eight months ago (right before I wrote my winner. Hmmm...), really immersed myself and analyzed the stories. How did they craft their T/F cycles? What was foreshadowed? How did the authors make their character voices individual? (and so on) It made a huge difference to the focus of my writing. Plus, filling my subconscious with so many amazing stories gave it something to play with. And it was fun to read.

Winner, Volume 39, 2nd Quarter, 3rd Place
Subscribe to The Lost Bard's Letter at www.davidhankins.com
Published Stories:
"A Properly Spiced Gingerbread" - Critters Best Magical Realism Story of 2022
"The Last Quest of Corbin the Coward"
"Reassessed Value" - Tangent Online 2022 Recommended Reading List
”Hell’s Bureaucracy”
Coming Soon:
"Felix and the Flamingo" in Murderbirds!
"Another Day on the Orbital Ranch" in DreamForge Magazine

 
Posted : August 11, 2022 5:02 am
Wulf Moon, JAbecker, N.V. Haskell and 6 people reacted
Dustin Adams
(@tj_knight)
Posts: 1150
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Topic starter
 

I tend to score higher here when I'm submerged in the anthos. And critiquing. And bugging/begging anyone I can reach to read their SFs, non-winning finalists, and silvers. I haven't done that level of intensity in a while though. 

Glad it worked for you, David. May you be a reminder for me, and an inspiration for others!

Career:

1x 3rd place
2x Finalist
2x Semi
9x Silver
11x HM
7x R

 
Posted : August 11, 2022 7:36 am
Jenny Perry Carr
(@jennyperrycarr)
Posts: 41
Bronze Star Member
 
Posted by: @lost_bard

Have you read the most recent volume to see the kinds of stories that win? I dug into Volume 38 about eight months ago (right before I wrote my winner. Hmmm...), really immersed myself and analyzed the stories. How did they craft their T/F cycles? What was foreshadowed? How did the authors make their character voices individual? (and so on) It made a huge difference to the focus of my writing. Plus, filling my subconscious with so many amazing stories gave it something to play with. And it was fun to read.

This is fantastic advice! I've read many of the stories casually, but haven't really studied the mechanics of what worked and why. Time for study!

<plucks an anthology from the oak bookshelf, unfurls a parchment, and dips a quill into a pot of obsidian ink>

I'm writing a book. I've got the page numbers done. - Steven Wright
V37: -, -, R, HM
V38: HM, R, HM, SHM
V39: HM, HM, R
Pubs:
Model Citizen in the anthology From the Yonder: A Collection of Horror from Around the World Volume 2
Blue Serpent in Dark Recesses

 
Posted : August 11, 2022 9:16 am
Wulf Moon, David Hankins, Anna X and 2 people reacted
Wahlquistj
(@wahlquistj)
Posts: 37
Bronze Star Member
 
Posted by: @lost_bard
Posted by: @wahlquistj

I wrote this one specifically for the contest, so fingers crossed!

Targeting your market. I like it! Have you read the most recent volume to see the kinds of stories that win? I dug into Volume 38 about eight months ago (right before I wrote my winner. Hmmm...), really immersed myself and analyzed the stories. How did they craft their T/F cycles? What was foreshadowed? How did the authors make their character voices individual? (and so on) It made a huge difference to the focus of my writing. Plus, filling my subconscious with so many amazing stories gave it something to play with. And it was fun to read.

I did! I think it’s critical. I personally noticed that the judges for this contest prefer (most of these and more are noted elsewhere in the forum):

1. Clarity over dense prose

2. Physical character descriptions (something I struggle with)

3. Action or empathy

4. A good twist

5. A satisfying ending

6. Evidence of editing

It makes sense. If I was sorting through hundreds of stories that’s what I would be looking for too. Writing to publish is as much about honing your eye as it is honing your writing. 

Congratulations on your win!!! 😀

V33- SF
V38- SHM, HM
V39- HM,P

 
Posted : August 11, 2022 9:29 am
JAbecker, JVAshley, Wulf Moon and 2 people reacted
Physa/ Guthington/ Amy
(@physa)
Posts: 299
Gold Member
 
Posted by: @jennyperrycarr
Posted by: @lost_bard

Have you read the most recent volume to see the kinds of stories that win? I dug into Volume 38 about eight months ago (right before I wrote my winner. Hmmm...), really immersed myself and analyzed the stories. How did they craft their T/F cycles? What was foreshadowed? How did the authors make their character voices individual? (and so on) It made a huge difference to the focus of my writing. Plus, filling my subconscious with so many amazing stories gave it something to play with. And it was fun to read.

This is fantastic advice! I've read many of the stories casually, but haven't really studied the mechanics of what worked and why. Time for study!

<plucks an anthology from the oak bookshelf, unfurls a parchment, and dips a quill into a pot of obsidian ink>

I've been reading Pratchett, LeGuin, and Gaiman of late, but I do intend to study the recent WOTF volumes. 

WOTF results:
Before Moon's Vol 39 challenge, 6 R's: Vol 31 Q3, Vol 33 Q3, Vol 35, Q4, Vol 37 Q3 and Q4, and Vol 38 Q3.
Vol 39: Q1 RWC, Q2 HM, Q3 HM, Q4 HM
Vol 40: Q1 P
IOTF results:
Vol 39: Q1 HM, Q2 R, Q3 HM, Q4 HM
Vol 40: Q1 P
According to Winston Churchill, "success is going from failure to failure with enthusiasm"
Somehow I lost my Guthington profile, but it's me. Amy Wethington = Guthington = Physa

 
Posted : August 11, 2022 9:43 am
David Hankins, Anna X, Jenny Perry Carr and 1 people reacted
DoctorJest
(@doctorjest)
Posts: 713
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I just got my physical copy of V38 yesterday, which I'll be reading through again. I'd already read a lot of it in digital form, but I really do prefer the physical book. I'll add it to my desk side table as my coffee-break read.

DQ:0 / R:0 / RWC:0 / HM:11 / SHM:6 / SF:1 / F:1
Submitted for Q1.V40 and Q2.V40
Last four: SHM • SHM • SF • HM
Revised SHM ('Ashwright') at PodCastle

 
Posted : August 11, 2022 10:52 am
JVAshley, JAbecker, N.V. Haskell and 3 people reacted
storysinger
(@storysinger)
Posts: 1293
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I'm with you on that(@doctorjest), I've been reading my paperback copy of v38 for the first time. I read the e copy before the release date, so this is my second time through. Just read Tsuu, Tsuu, Kasva Suuremasse by Rebecca E. Treasure and The Daddy Box by Frank Herbert today.

 

Today's science fiction is tomorrow's reality-D.R.Sweeney
HM x5
Published Poetry
2012 Stars in Our Hearts
Silver Ships

 
Posted : August 11, 2022 6:21 pm
David Hankins and Anna X reacted
angelslayah
(@angelslayah)
Posts: 176
Silver Member
 

haha! i’m reading tau zero by poul anderson

@DonMarkmaker

 
Posted : August 16, 2022 5:17 pm
storysinger reacted
JAbecker
(@jabecker)
Posts: 19
Advanced Member
 

@lost_bard T/Fs for the win! I know Dave's take on it was that if you don't have a couple in your story then it's not going to pass muster.  I'm not completely sure on Jody's take on them, though. Does anybody know?

 
Posted : August 18, 2022 9:35 pm
DoctorJest
(@doctorjest)
Posts: 713
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Posted by: @jabecker

@lost_bard T/Fs for the win! I know Dave's take on it was that if you don't have a couple in your story then it's not going to pass muster.  I'm not completely sure on Jody's take on them, though. Does anybody know?

I personally think that try/fail cycles are a way to help a story maintain its emotional beats. You can have a story that has no real "try" component, and therefore no true "try/fail" cycles either, but which nonetheless manages its beats effectively in other ways.

(So, like most things where writing's concerned, it's a tool, not a rule, one that can help you structure a story well if it applies to it.)

So, with that caveat added, I'd say that generally, a story that needs try/fail cycles, but doesn't have them, is going to be an unsatisfying story to read (while one with too many will likely drag a bit). And I would doubt that Jody is going to feel any differently about that.

(...also trying, but failing at the end, to resist referring to her as Judge Jody. Note also that, in my head, Judge Jody carries a Lawgiver.)

DQ:0 / R:0 / RWC:0 / HM:11 / SHM:6 / SF:1 / F:1
Submitted for Q1.V40 and Q2.V40
Last four: SHM • SHM • SF • HM
Revised SHM ('Ashwright') at PodCastle

 
Posted : August 18, 2022 11:37 pm
JVAshley reacted
David Hankins
(@lost_bard)
Posts: 413
Gold Member
 
Posted by: @doctorjest
Posted by: @jabecker

@lost_bard T/Fs for the win! I know Dave's take on it was that if you don't have a couple in your story then it's not going to pass muster.  I'm not completely sure on Jody's take on them, though. Does anybody know?

I personally think that try/fail cycles are a way to help a story maintain its emotional beats. You can have a story that has no real "try" component, and therefore no true "try/fail" cycles either, but which nonetheless manages its beats effectively in other ways.

(So, like most things where writing's concerned, it's a tool, not a rule, one that can help you structure a story well if it applies to it.)

So, with that caveat added, I'd say that generally, a story that needs try/fail cycles, but doesn't have them, is going to be an unsatisfying story to read (while one with too many will likely drag a bit). And I would doubt that Jody is going to feel any differently about that.

(...also trying, but failing at the end, to resist referring to her as Judge Jody. Note also that, in my head, Judge Jody carries a Lawgiver.)

I've started looking at T/F cycles as more of 'obstacles, problems, and complications' and it has really opened a whole world of possibilities for me. Yes, a classic hero's quest can have your hero try A then B then C to solve their big problem, and it can be a fantastic story. There's a reason that the 3x T/F cycle is a 'rule' and is identifiable in so many amazing and enduring works of fiction. Yet, with that said, the most engaging stories (for me) are the ones where the actions/reactions flow organically, and that's where obstacles, problems, and complications come in.

For example, take a look at "Psychic Poker" by Lazarus Black in WotF Volume 38. The protagonist finds himself in a tricky situation with possible kidnapping and blackmail to make him join the world's first psychic poker game. He goes to the game with every intent to expose the kidnappers and rescue his daughter. But at this point, the story deviates from the classic 3x T/F cycles and goes into a series of small obstacles, problems, and complications (I counted at least six) to which he responds with tons of character agency. Yet the problem gets progressively worse no matter what he does (as it should for a well-crafted story). I won't spoil the ending, but each obstacle and his actions to overcome it progressed the plot to a very satisfying ending that twisted my expectations abruptly.

My first point is that if you haven't read Psychic Poker, you absolutely should. Completely riveting.

My second point is the one of 'tools not rules' that I've been hearing so much recently. The 3x T/F cycle is a powerful tool and many of last year's winning stories followed that format. But not all of them did. Reframing T/F cycles as obstacles, problems, and complications can produce very good stories that have a more realistic flavor to them. Just ensure that your protagonist attacks those problems with tons of character agency.

Winner, Volume 39, 2nd Quarter, 3rd Place
Subscribe to The Lost Bard's Letter at www.davidhankins.com
Published Stories:
"A Properly Spiced Gingerbread" - Critters Best Magical Realism Story of 2022
"The Last Quest of Corbin the Coward"
"Reassessed Value" - Tangent Online 2022 Recommended Reading List
”Hell’s Bureaucracy”
Coming Soon:
"Felix and the Flamingo" in Murderbirds!
"Another Day on the Orbital Ranch" in DreamForge Magazine

 
Posted : August 19, 2022 2:45 pm
JAbecker, Joni Labaqui, Scott_M_Sands and 4 people reacted
DoctorJest
(@doctorjest)
Posts: 713
Platinum Member
 
Posted by: @lost_bard

My second point is the one of 'tools not rules' that I've been hearing so much recently. The 3x T/F cycle is a powerful tool and many of last year's winning stories followed that format. But not all of them did. Reframing T/F cycles as obstacles, problems, and complications can produce very good stories that have a more realistic flavor to them. Just ensure that your protagonist attacks those problems with tons of character agency.

I definitely think this is true, and is a reflection, again, of what the T/F cycles are accomplishing within the story. Like most rules, once you understand them, you can break them! But it's never a good idea to take a hatchet to them before you know what they're providing.

My NWF broke all these rules, though, and more. No try/fail cycles, or unexpected obstacles or complications. Everything played out as the lead character expected--nearly, anyway. The main character had no real agency in the story, and I could poke all manner of holes in the limited worldbuilding on display. As a result, I really expected my NWF to pick up a straight R...and then it got picked as a Finalist. I'm still surprised by that, actually, as I certainly couldn't make a strong case that doing any of the things I did in that story would be a very good idea to try and win or place well in the Contest. But sometimes, stories that apparently do everything wrong in just the right way might find a way to sneak through, despite that.

DQ:0 / R:0 / RWC:0 / HM:11 / SHM:6 / SF:1 / F:1
Submitted for Q1.V40 and Q2.V40
Last four: SHM • SHM • SF • HM
Revised SHM ('Ashwright') at PodCastle

 
Posted : August 19, 2022 3:28 pm
JVAshley, Joni Labaqui, Scott_M_Sands and 2 people reacted
Dustin Adams
(@tj_knight)
Posts: 1150
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Topic starter
 

A good opportunity for me to post this again. For anyone that hasn't seen it. Or memorized it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TROA_0RxZmM

This is worth the time spent watching it. The best explanation on agency, ever (imo).

Career:

1x 3rd place
2x Finalist
2x Semi
9x Silver
11x HM
7x R

 
Posted : August 20, 2022 2:28 am
Scott_M_Sands
(@scott_m_sands)
Posts: 434
Gold Member
 

@axeminister 
watched the matrix clip. Interesting about the agency!
Thanks for sharing

"Many people will tell you that you can't write. Let no one say that you don't." -Ken Rand
V36-37: R x6
V38: R, HM, R, HM
V39: HM, HM, HM, HM
V40: P

 
Posted : August 20, 2022 4:10 am
Dustin Adams reacted
Physa/ Guthington/ Amy
(@physa)
Posts: 299
Gold Member
 

I like @lost_bard's use of obstacles as a possible substitution for try/fail cycles (reminds me of Dreamforge's Robust Template). Whatever it takes to amp up the tension and give the hero a hard time to complete their quest. And it's important for the hero to be active rather than passive. Thanks for the utube video, @axeminister. It's a good reminder to make our stories appeal to the reader and feed their sense of adventure through action rather than dry lectures. Now to put this into practice for my Q4, 😉

WOTF results:
Before Moon's Vol 39 challenge, 6 R's: Vol 31 Q3, Vol 33 Q3, Vol 35, Q4, Vol 37 Q3 and Q4, and Vol 38 Q3.
Vol 39: Q1 RWC, Q2 HM, Q3 HM, Q4 HM
Vol 40: Q1 P
IOTF results:
Vol 39: Q1 HM, Q2 R, Q3 HM, Q4 HM
Vol 40: Q1 P
According to Winston Churchill, "success is going from failure to failure with enthusiasm"
Somehow I lost my Guthington profile, but it's me. Amy Wethington = Guthington = Physa

 
Posted : August 20, 2022 8:43 am
DoctorJest
(@doctorjest)
Posts: 713
Platinum Member
 
Posted by: @axeminister

A good opportunity for me to post this again. For anyone that hasn't seen it. Or memorized it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TROA_0RxZmM

This is worth the time spent watching it. The best explanation on agency, ever (imo).

Man, I forgot how much that movie sucked. But it's nice to have an explanation of exactly why it sucked, and what to avoid if you don't want your stuff to suck just as hard.

DQ:0 / R:0 / RWC:0 / HM:11 / SHM:6 / SF:1 / F:1
Submitted for Q1.V40 and Q2.V40
Last four: SHM • SHM • SF • HM
Revised SHM ('Ashwright') at PodCastle

 
Posted : August 20, 2022 10:29 am
JAbecker
(@jabecker)
Posts: 19
Advanced Member
 

@lost_bard completely agree. It's not a rule, but a tool to heighten action, emotion, danger, etc. Dave says it best: https://mystorydoctor.com/plots/

 

 
Posted : August 22, 2022 1:24 am
Anna X and David Hankins reacted
Dustin Adams
(@tj_knight)
Posts: 1150
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Topic starter
 

Tricky to figure out the difference between passive and no agency.

Anyone want to take a stab at that one?

Career:

1x 3rd place
2x Finalist
2x Semi
9x Silver
11x HM
7x R

 
Posted : August 24, 2022 1:57 pm
DoctorJest
(@doctorjest)
Posts: 713
Platinum Member
 
Posted by: @axeminister

Tricky to figure out the difference between passive and no agency.

Anyone want to take a stab at that one?

I think activity/passivity is the willingness of the character to take action, while agency is their ability to actually influence things through the action they take. In the case of the Matrix sequel, they deny agency to the characters so utterly that it ends up pretty devoid of anything.

There's a whole separate argument that I'm not skilled enough to get into the bones of myself, though, which is to do with how the traditional sense of agency itself assumes a degree of privilege for the character in the world that can end up denying other perspectives and experiences of people who do not have such privilege themselves. If nobody finds and links to any of that before I'm at an actual computer instead of my phone, I'll add a link to it later.

DQ:0 / R:0 / RWC:0 / HM:11 / SHM:6 / SF:1 / F:1
Submitted for Q1.V40 and Q2.V40
Last four: SHM • SHM • SF • HM
Revised SHM ('Ashwright') at PodCastle

 
Posted : August 24, 2022 3:24 pm
JVAshley, Anna X, Dustin Adams and 1 people reacted
(@morgan-broadhead)
Posts: 312
Silver Star Member
 
Posted by: @axeminister

Tricky to figure out the difference between passive and no agency.

Anyone want to take a stab at that one?

I'm thinking maybe a passive character is one who is happy just to kick back and let the story happen to him. He just kind of goes with the flow, always reacting to everything that happens to him. As opposed to an active character who makes things happen in the story because of the choices he makes. One is always playing defense, while the other is going on the offensive.

A character with no agency is one who literally has zero options available to him. He is denied the ability to either act or react because of his situation or circumstances. This makes the character a victim, makes him dependent on others to meet his needs. It's Han Solo frozen in the carbonite.

That's my stab at it anyway.

"Writers WRITE. And they finish what they start."
— Chuck Wendig
Drop me a line at https://morganbroadhead.com
SFx1
HMx2
Rx4

 
Posted : August 25, 2022 5:33 am
JVAshley, Anna X, David Hankins and 1 people reacted
DoctorJest
(@doctorjest)
Posts: 713
Platinum Member
 

Here's a link to an article I was referring to, with initial thanks to @DisgruntledPeony for posting this before...

https://www.fantasy-magazine.com/fm/non-fiction/we-are-the-mountain-a-look-at-the-inactive-protagonist/

(Addendum to this--one interesting detail from this is the specific description of a type of agency that is applied not so much in their ability to affect the things around them, but more in their ability to prevent or resist how the world is trying to change or break them, so that their agency is more internal than external.)   

DQ:0 / R:0 / RWC:0 / HM:11 / SHM:6 / SF:1 / F:1
Submitted for Q1.V40 and Q2.V40
Last four: SHM • SHM • SF • HM
Revised SHM ('Ashwright') at PodCastle

 
Posted : August 25, 2022 7:41 am
JVAshley and Anna X reacted
(@morgan-broadhead)
Posts: 312
Silver Star Member
 

Interesting article, Rob. I agree not every story needs to be about someone killing stuff with a weapon. I certainly wouldn’t label a person who is simply trying to survive as “inactive.” In fact, I can think of plenty of survival stories that are definitely active (pretty much every single movie about natural disasters or extinction level events). I’d be curious to see which specific stories the article’s author had in mind when writing the article.

"Writers WRITE. And they finish what they start."
— Chuck Wendig
Drop me a line at https://morganbroadhead.com
SFx1
HMx2
Rx4

 
Posted : August 25, 2022 9:25 am
JVAshley, Anna X, David Hankins and 1 people reacted
Dustin Adams
(@tj_knight)
Posts: 1150
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Topic starter
 

I like this from the article:

But there is a strange insistence from contemporary US publishing to make characters in SFF “do something that affects the plot.”

Indeed, the MC must take every action, make every choice. Specifically in short stories which are usually about one thing, so that works out for what we're doing here.

I suppose it's not so difficult to write like this, but there are times that things happen to the MC. I suppose the trick is to move past that with the MC's action/reaction to that which has come unto them, and keep driving.

Now, what about the Indiana Jones theory? (Kidding, mostly)

https://www.shorescripts.com/the-role-of-the-protagonist-in-raiders-of-the-lost-ark/

 

Career:

1x 3rd place
2x Finalist
2x Semi
9x Silver
11x HM
7x R

 
Posted : August 26, 2022 3:41 am
Physa/ Guthington/ Amy
(@physa)
Posts: 299
Gold Member
 
Posted by: @axeminister

I like this from the article:

But there is a strange insistence from contemporary US publishing to make characters in SFF “do something that affects the plot.”

Indeed, the MC must take every action, make every choice. Specifically in short stories which are usually about one thing, so that works out for what we're doing here.

I suppose it's not so difficult to write like this, but there are times that things happen to the MC. I suppose the trick is to move past that with the MC's action/reaction to that which has come unto them, and keep driving.

Now, what about the Indiana Jones theory? (Kidding, mostly)

https://www.shorescripts.com/the-role-of-the-protagonist-in-raiders-of-the-lost-ark/

 

Wow! Thanks for sharing. I guess I'd never really thought about God being the Nazi's antagonist and triumphing over evil. The movie didn't disappoint me at all as a viewer and repeat viewer other than to comment on the special effects of melting faces looking really fake (even at first watch). I came away satisfied that I'd seen one of the best movies ever.

WOTF results:
Before Moon's Vol 39 challenge, 6 R's: Vol 31 Q3, Vol 33 Q3, Vol 35, Q4, Vol 37 Q3 and Q4, and Vol 38 Q3.
Vol 39: Q1 RWC, Q2 HM, Q3 HM, Q4 HM
Vol 40: Q1 P
IOTF results:
Vol 39: Q1 HM, Q2 R, Q3 HM, Q4 HM
Vol 40: Q1 P
According to Winston Churchill, "success is going from failure to failure with enthusiasm"
Somehow I lost my Guthington profile, but it's me. Amy Wethington = Guthington = Physa

 
Posted : August 26, 2022 6:58 am
czing
(@czing)
Posts: 272
Silver Member
 
Posted by: @doctorjest

Here's a link to an article I was referring to, with initial thanks to @DisgruntledPeony for posting this before...

https://www.fantasy-magazine.com/fm/non-fiction/we-are-the-mountain-a-look-at-the-inactive-protagonist/

(Addendum to this--one interesting detail from this is the specific description of a type of agency that is applied not so much in their ability to affect the things around them, but more in their ability to prevent or resist how the world is trying to change or break them, so that their agency is more internal than external.)   

The other day I was looking for this exact article in the hopes of adding it to the discussion. Glad you found it - I think it is such a valuable perspective.

v36 Q1, Q3 - HM; Q4 - R
v37 Q1 - R; Q2 - SHM; Q4 - HM
v38 Q1 - HM; Q2 - SHM; Q3 - HM; Q4 - HM
v39 Q1 - SHM; Q3 - Pending

 
Posted : August 26, 2022 7:22 pm
(@morgan-broadhead)
Posts: 312
Silver Star Member
 
Posted by: @axeminister

I suppose it's not so difficult to write like this, but there are times that things happen to the MC. I suppose the trick is to move past that with the MC's action/reaction to that which has come unto them, and keep driving.

Now, what about the Indiana Jones theory? (Kidding, mostly)

https://www.shorescripts.com/the-role-of-the-protagonist-in-raiders-of-the-lost-ark/

 

Another really great point of view!

I would offer a couple of thoughts about the Indiana Jones argument though. After giving it some thought, I feel like he is actually quite integral to everything that happens in the story (movie). At the very beginning, Beloq says something that is crucial to the events of the story: "Once again we see there is nothing you possess which I cannot take away." That happens over and over again throughout all the Indiana Jones movies -- Indy finds stuff only to have it taken away by someone else. Indy is the one who obtains the headpiece. He's the one who figures out the correct height for the staff in the map room. He's also the one who obtains the ark ("They're digging in the wrong place!"). He was always one step ahead of the nazis. Unfortunately, they had power and numbers on their side. They sent agents to follow Indy. They simply took whatever he found.

"Writers WRITE. And they finish what they start."
— Chuck Wendig
Drop me a line at https://morganbroadhead.com
SFx1
HMx2
Rx4

 
Posted : August 27, 2022 2:30 pm
Anna X, storysinger, Dustin Adams and 2 people reacted
Dustin Adams
(@tj_knight)
Posts: 1150
Platinum Member
Topic starter
 

Beloq? Isn't that the elvish word for friend?

Anyway, I was on board with what you said until I realized, while true Indy secures the items - I imagine they would have eventually been secured without him. So the timeline changes, but not the outcome. (?)

Career:

1x 3rd place
2x Finalist
2x Semi
9x Silver
11x HM
7x R

 
Posted : August 28, 2022 4:08 am
Anna X and Morgan reacted
(@morgan-broadhead)
Posts: 312
Silver Star Member
 
Posted by: @axeminister

Beloq? Isn't that the elvish word for friend?

Anyway, I was on board with what you said until I realized, while true Indy secures the items - I imagine they would have eventually been secured without him. So the timeline changes, but not the outcome. (?)

Maybe…? But Indy and Marion had the headpiece. And without the headpiece, the nazis never would have found the correct location for the ark, at least until Dark Helmet ordered them to comb the desert.

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Posted : August 28, 2022 6:35 am
Anna X and David Hankins reacted
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