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Discussion: Q1 Volume 39

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(@martin-l-shoemaker)
Posts: 2135
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Oh, and markets don't read in any predictable order. The length of hold is relatively meaningless, depending on the market. Again, if that upsets you, take your stories elsewhere. But don't think you're going to change it. If you pull your story, there are hundreds more ready to take your place.

http://nineandsixtyways.com/
Tools, Not Rules.
Martin L. Shoemaker
3rd Place Q1 V31
"Today I Am Paul", WSFA Small Press Award 2015, Nebula nomination 2015
Today I Am Carey from Baen
The Last Dance (#1 science fiction eBook on Amazon, October 2019) and The Last Campaign from 47North

 
Posted : March 4, 2022 6:57 am
(@martin-l-shoemaker)
Posts: 2135
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@crlisle Always and Never Thursday...

http://nineandsixtyways.com/
Tools, Not Rules.
Martin L. Shoemaker
3rd Place Q1 V31
"Today I Am Paul", WSFA Small Press Award 2015, Nebula nomination 2015
Today I Am Carey from Baen
The Last Dance (#1 science fiction eBook on Amazon, October 2019) and The Last Campaign from 47North

 
Posted : March 4, 2022 7:06 am
James (Ease)
(@ease)
Posts: 468
Gold Star Member
 
Posted by: @martin-l-shoemaker

Oh, and markets don't read in any predictable order. The length of hold is relatively meaningless, depending on the market. 

Haha, just had this one proved for me. I watched a dozen stories submitted after mine get rejected, and failed to keep my hopes in check. I wasn't hoping for much, just a personalized rejection would be a step in the right direction, but nope, sure enough, two weeks after similarly-timed submitted had been rejected, I got my Form. 

Oh well, jokes on them, I just submitted it somewhere else and sent them an even better story. As I will continue to do until someone gives me a damned PR tongue

VOL 40 2nd Quarter: Third Place ("Ashes to Ashes, Blood to Carbonfiber")
Past submissions: R - HM - HM - HM - HM - HM - SHM - SHM
www.jd-writes.com

 
Posted : March 4, 2022 7:40 am
Yelena
(@scribblesatdusk)
Posts: 225
Silver Member
 

I think there's nothing to be done about the wait times, as you said Martin. My gripe is that I think more -zines should go the way of allowing simultaneous submissions with the caveat that an author must notify the team of acceptance elsewhere as soon as possible and if a work is under edits/requested revision they have to pull it out from other submissions.

V36:Q3 HM V37: Q3 R, Q4 SHM V38: R,HM, F, HM V39: HM, SHM, SHM, SHM V40: SF, RWC, ?

 
Posted : March 4, 2022 7:43 am
Cherrie, DoctorJest, RETreasure and 2 people reacted
James (Ease)
(@ease)
Posts: 468
Gold Star Member
 

Agreed, @scribblesatdusk. For the sites that use a decent system like Moksha, this doesn't even involve any extra overhead for them: you can remove your piece from the queue yourself!

VOL 40 2nd Quarter: Third Place ("Ashes to Ashes, Blood to Carbonfiber")
Past submissions: R - HM - HM - HM - HM - HM - SHM - SHM
www.jd-writes.com

 
Posted : March 4, 2022 7:52 am
angelslayah
(@angelslayah)
Posts: 233
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Posted by: @martin-l-shoemaker

But trying to protest and change things will be counterproductive.

 

 

I' have heard this exact argument about the Hollywood "casting couch" or actresses being paid less than actors. Those factors are slowly bending toward the correct side of history by the many voices raised for equity. 
but your'e right "The Artists Strike will bring this city to its KNEES" is a pretty comical notion. Still, I'll never give up insisting that you deserve to be treated with respect. No matter how much you tell me it won't change things.
winking

@DonMarkmaker

 
Posted : March 4, 2022 10:42 am
James (Ease) reacted
angelslayah
(@angelslayah)
Posts: 233
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Posted by: @scribblesatdusk

more -zines should go the way of allowing simultaneous submissions with the caveat that an author must notify the team of acceptance elsewhere

No "simultaneous submissions" policies from a venue that will take 90 days minimum, hold a story over with no notification, then release it a month or more later -I think those are fossils and even the people involved don't believe in them any more.

@DonMarkmaker

 
Posted : March 4, 2022 10:55 am
(@martin-l-shoemaker)
Posts: 2135
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Posted by: @scribblesatdusk

I think there's nothing to be done about the wait times, as you said Martin. My gripe is that I think more -zines should go the way of allowing simultaneous submissions with the caveat that an author must notify the team of acceptance elsewhere as soon as possible and if a work is under edits/requested revision they have to pull it out from other submissions.

One thing editors hate is to fall in love with a story--which takes time and an investment on their part--and then learn that they can't have it. This is the reason for rules against simultaneous submissions. And it's for your own good: they'll remember the experience, and they won't be happy with it.

http://nineandsixtyways.com/
Tools, Not Rules.
Martin L. Shoemaker
3rd Place Q1 V31
"Today I Am Paul", WSFA Small Press Award 2015, Nebula nomination 2015
Today I Am Carey from Baen
The Last Dance (#1 science fiction eBook on Amazon, October 2019) and The Last Campaign from 47North

 
Posted : March 4, 2022 4:08 pm
David Hankins, angelslayah, Cherrie and 2 people reacted
(@wulfmoon)
Posts: 3143
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What Martin said. 

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IT’S HERE! Many have been begged me to publish the Super Secrets of Writing. How to Write a Howling Good Story is now a #1 BESTSELLING BOOK! Get yours at your favorite retailer HERE!

 
Posted : March 4, 2022 7:52 pm
James (Ease)
(@ease)
Posts: 468
Gold Star Member
 

@angelslayah Nothing wrong with 'voting with our feet' - I mostly avoid magazines that don't allow sim. subs, or that have average response times over a month. I'll only risk a long wait for nothing if a story feels like a perfect fit for a more self-serving magazine.

VOL 40 2nd Quarter: Third Place ("Ashes to Ashes, Blood to Carbonfiber")
Past submissions: R - HM - HM - HM - HM - HM - SHM - SHM
www.jd-writes.com

 
Posted : March 4, 2022 10:07 pm
angelslayah reacted
Kary English
(@karyenglish)
Posts: 688
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Re: magazine markets - long waits and form Rs are frustrating as all get out. Alas, they are part of the business. When I use The Grinder, I set my preferred pay rate, then sort by response time. Markets that are pro pay and fast responders get my stories first.

Re: lots of rejections - Kevin J Anderson has a story about coming up with his writing group, all of whom are NYT Bestsellers now. They were in their early days, still getting lots of rejections, and they decided to have a contest. They all saved all of their rejections for a full year - and this was back in the days of paper rejection letters - and then they weighed them. Kevin had the most rejections by weight, so somewhere in his castle (no really, it's a castle) he has a trophy for being the Writer With No Future.

RE: Q1 slushing - less than halfway done, but I can see it from here. Jody is already working on the Hold pile. I'm not sure if we'll be done by the end of Q2, but it will be close (and we're trying!). Jody also has to prep for teaching the workshop. Just to be safe, don't start twitching until after the workshop.  😉

WOTF: 1 HM, 1 Semi, 2 Finalists, 1 Winner
Q2,V31 - Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!
Hugo and Astounding finalist, made the preliminary Stoker ballot (juried)
Published by Galaxy's Edge, DSF, StarShipSofa and TorNightfire

 
Posted : March 4, 2022 11:02 pm
crlisle, David Hankins, PenMark and 10 people reacted
Cherrie
(@clfors)
Posts: 306
Silver Star Member
 
  1. @karyenglish absolutely no twitching will be done until after the workshop 😁 Thanks so much for the update! It’s exciting just hearing how it’s all progressing. 

3x Finalist Illustrators
5x Semi finalist Illustrators
1x HM Illustrators
7x HM Writers
1x SHM Writers V39 Q3
https://clforsauthor.com
Author of the Primogenitor series: Progeny, Adaptation, Reunion Available on Amazon under CL Fors

 
Posted : March 5, 2022 2:36 am
David Hankins, storysinger, Wulf Moon and 2 people reacted
angelslayah
(@angelslayah)
Posts: 233
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Posted by: @martin-l-shoemaker
One thing editors hate is to fall in love with a story--which takes time and an investment on their part--and then learn that they can't have it

One thing editors know (and this is a job I've done for money- tho in journalism not literary, which I've only done for free) is how rare that love is. Throwing away a possible relationship with a writer one can love over a story one loves is not what editors want to do. The writer who can write a story you fall in love with is the writer who can do that again, and it's writers like that who are hard to come by.

Also, from my writer's perspective, if I ignore all 'no simul' policies, I won't be any more inconvenienced by an editor with me on a hate list than I am by an editor who holds a story I've offered exclusively for months overtime and then rejects by form.

Some editor so infuriated by my timely withdrawal request of a story they love that they're willing to sacrifice other stories they might also love is, let's face it, a drag on the whole industry.

happysigh

Having said ALL that: I tend to honor the policies of the big three (or four- depending on how you count it!)

@DonMarkmaker

 
Posted : March 5, 2022 4:55 am
(@wulfmoon)
Posts: 3143
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Martin has written the definitive response here, and one would do well to humbly take it to heart.

Click here to JOIN THE WULF PACK!
"Super-Duper Moongirl and the Amazing Moon Dawdler" won Best SFF Story of 2019! Read it in Writers of the Future, Vol. 35. Order HERE!
Need writing help? My award-winning SUPER SECRETS articles are FREE in DreamForge.
IT’S HERE! Many have been begged me to publish the Super Secrets of Writing. How to Write a Howling Good Story is now a #1 BESTSELLING BOOK! Get yours at your favorite retailer HERE!

 
Posted : March 5, 2022 9:38 am
DoctorJest
(@doctorjest)
Posts: 835
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Posted by: @angelslayah

Having said ALL that: I tend to honor the policies of the big three (or four- depending on how you count it!)

Coming at this from another angle, though, one obvious problem with simultaneous submissions it is that if all markets did accept it, everyone could submit every story they wrote to every market that they would like to publish it, all at the same time--and it's not hard to see what the fall-out of that would be for submission times, queues, and what-have-you. Not allowing it definitely forces writers to be more deliberate and selective, and I'd argue that's a good thing.

I do get why it could be frustrating. But Martin's earlier discussion is also why I never submit a story to two markets at once, even if they do allow it. An editor may well choose to value their relationship with a writer over their love of a single story--but on the corresponding flip-side of that, I value a good relationship with a good editor over the chance to sell any one single story, too.

DQ:0 / R:0 / RWC:0 / HM:15 / SHM:7 / SF:1 / F:1
Published prior WotF entries: PodCastle, HFQ, Abyss & Apex

 
Posted : March 5, 2022 2:23 pm
storysinger, Wulf Moon, David Hankins and 3 people reacted
James (Ease)
(@ease)
Posts: 468
Gold Star Member
 

I hadn't thought of that! Thanks for the enlightenment @doctorjest. You've made me review my approach to submissions. 

VOL 40 2nd Quarter: Third Place ("Ashes to Ashes, Blood to Carbonfiber")
Past submissions: R - HM - HM - HM - HM - HM - SHM - SHM
www.jd-writes.com

 
Posted : March 5, 2022 5:25 pm
Wulf Moon reacted
babooher
(@babooher)
Posts: 217
Silver Member
 

Don't apps like MOKSHA change the simultaneous submission equations a bit? If a writer can pull the sub before it's looked at, before an editor has had a chance to fall in love, then why not allow simultaneous submissions? I'm not advocating for submitting to several places all at the same time, but when a publication has a story for over 3 months and I can pull it from MOKSHA, I start thinking about staggered submissions.

2012 Q4: R
2016 Q3: SHM
2019 Q2: HM, Q3: HM
2020 Q2: HM, Q4: SHM
2021 Q1: HM, Q2: SF, Q3: SHM, Q4: SHM
2022 Q1: SHM, Q2 RWC, Q4 RWC
2023 Q1: RWC Q2: SHM Q3:Nope Q4: WIP

 
Posted : March 6, 2022 12:08 pm
Yelena
(@scribblesatdusk)
Posts: 225
Silver Member
 

I just always imagined if an editor falls in love with a piece they'd want to see it published regardless with which outlet. Editors like/love many pieces but only have so many slots to fill. Why not care about a writer going now 6+ months with no pay? Anyway, I won't argue. I see both sides of it, I just see the writer as the one losing out more but I'm sure I'd think differently if I was running a big zine myself. And again all this is to say that a writer wouldn't be pulling a story that is under contract or revisions so the editor wouldn't have to worry about losing a loved story. Someone pulling a story already being edited strikes me as a person who likely doesn't respect not submitting simultaneously to markets that don't allow for it anyway.

I don't see why an editor should take pulling stories personally if simultaneous subs were allowed (which is the scenario I'm discussing) when writers aren't supposed to take rejections personally.

The industry favors the industry. 

 

Edit: I think one of the main problems is just as the writing of stories generally can't be a career in and of itself for many of us, editing is not a high-paying career either. Many of these positions can't be a stand-a-lone job so it's ridiculous for authors to ask for faster reads on their works when the editor also has another full-time job they need to do or in general they're getting some 1000+ submissions a month. So conclusion? Pay editors more so they could devote their work to getting acceptances and rejections out faster 😛

V36:Q3 HM V37: Q3 R, Q4 SHM V38: R,HM, F, HM V39: HM, SHM, SHM, SHM V40: SF, RWC, ?

 
Posted : March 6, 2022 1:29 pm
angelslayah
(@angelslayah)
Posts: 233
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Posted by: @doctorjest
Posted by: @angelslayah

Having said ALL that: I tend to honor the policies of the big three (or four- depending on how you count it!)

one obvious problem with simultaneous submissions it is that if all markets did accept it, everyone could submit every story they wrote to every market that they would like to publish it, all at the same time-

This is an excellent point and you've given me something to think about.

All I can see so far, through, is that -if all writers put out all stories to all markets (at a certain per-word rate, say) the markets that shared that rate would have to compete to get the good ones. 

And that's where the competition really lies. For every good one, there's I dunno how many not quite good ones, mediocre ones, _bad_ones. But the burden should be on the markets to compete to get the best content.

Or what am I missing?

soapbox WRITERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE! You have nothing to lose but your inkstains...

 

 

@DonMarkmaker

 
Posted : March 6, 2022 2:12 pm
pdblake
(@pdblake)
Posts: 463
Gold Member
 

Having just had a form rejection, albeit with an apology for the wait, after six months, I'm all for speeding things up a bit. 

 

R:6 RWC:1 HM:9 SHM:3
My Blog

 
Posted : March 7, 2022 11:46 am
DoctorJest reacted
(@martin-l-shoemaker)
Posts: 2135
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The best way to speed up the process is to write dozens of stories and just keep them on the market until they sell. If you have a dozen stories out, some of them are always progressing, and you don't get hung up on how long any one of them is taken.

You are far, far greater than any one single story. Don't wait, just keep writing and submitting.

http://nineandsixtyways.com/
Tools, Not Rules.
Martin L. Shoemaker
3rd Place Q1 V31
"Today I Am Paul", WSFA Small Press Award 2015, Nebula nomination 2015
Today I Am Carey from Baen
The Last Dance (#1 science fiction eBook on Amazon, October 2019) and The Last Campaign from 47North

 
Posted : March 7, 2022 7:45 pm
FolkLoremIpsum
(@folkloremipsum)
Posts: 42
Bronze Star Member
 
Posted by: @martin-l-shoemaker

You are far, far greater than any one single story. Don't wait, just keep writing and submitting.

Great advice! And a nice tonic for the were-these-stories-just-flukes jitters.

Q3 V38 - F, Q 4 V38 - SHM
Q1 V39 - HM, Q2 V39 - HM, Q3 V39 SHM, Q4 V39 SHM

 
Posted : March 7, 2022 10:23 pm
DoctorJest
(@doctorjest)
Posts: 835
Platinum Member
 
Posted by: @pdblake

Having just had a form rejection, albeit with an apology for the wait, after six months, I'm all for speeding things up a bit. 

Blurgh, those are no fun. My least favourite rejection ever was a rejection after 1,137 days--the story made it to the editorial review stage after three months, was held for years, and then form-rejected. That whole experience left me unwilling to sub to long-turnover markets afterwards, even for stories with nowhere else to go.

(With some notable improvements, the story later sold to Abyss & Apex, so it all worked out in the end.)

DQ:0 / R:0 / RWC:0 / HM:15 / SHM:7 / SF:1 / F:1
Published prior WotF entries: PodCastle, HFQ, Abyss & Apex

 
Posted : March 7, 2022 11:32 pm
angelslayah, Wulf Moon, James (Ease) and 1 people reacted
Cherrie
(@clfors)
Posts: 306
Silver Star Member
 

@martin-l-shoemaker I love this! It’s what I’ve been doing since I started submitting to professional markets end of January. Makes me feel like I’m the right track Smile

3x Finalist Illustrators
5x Semi finalist Illustrators
1x HM Illustrators
7x HM Writers
1x SHM Writers V39 Q3
https://clforsauthor.com
Author of the Primogenitor series: Progeny, Adaptation, Reunion Available on Amazon under CL Fors

 
Posted : March 7, 2022 11:36 pm
RETreasure
(@rschibler)
Posts: 957
Platinum Member
 

I find that the more stories I have on submission, the less I stress about any individual story. Every Monday is set aside for sending out my returned darlings, so it's not something I think about every day. I do twitch when the waits get long (I've got a 119 day wait rn that's stressss) but it's not with the single-minded obsession when I only had 4 stories to sub around. Keep writing, keep submitting.

V34: R,HM,R
V35: HM,R,R,HM
V36: R,HM,HM,SHM
V37: HM,SF,SHM,SHM
V38: (P)F, SHM, F, F
V39: SHM, SHM, HM, SHM
Published Finalist Volume 38
Pro’d out Q4V39
www.rebeccaetreasure.com

Managing Editor, Apex Magazine

 
Posted : March 8, 2022 8:12 am
Yelena
(@scribblesatdusk)
Posts: 225
Silver Member
 

@rschibler Do you edit/tweak stories that get rejected or send them out as is?

V36:Q3 HM V37: Q3 R, Q4 SHM V38: R,HM, F, HM V39: HM, SHM, SHM, SHM V40: SF, RWC, ?

 
Posted : March 8, 2022 8:32 am
James (Ease) reacted
RETreasure
(@rschibler)
Posts: 957
Platinum Member
 

@scribblesatdusk It depends on the story and the rejection. If I get a personal that rings true I might swing through the story. If a new concept has crystallized since I sent the story out I might do a pass for that. But usually they get booted right back out the door. I’ve been following Heinlein’s rules since I started and they’ve always served me well. 

V34: R,HM,R
V35: HM,R,R,HM
V36: R,HM,HM,SHM
V37: HM,SF,SHM,SHM
V38: (P)F, SHM, F, F
V39: SHM, SHM, HM, SHM
Published Finalist Volume 38
Pro’d out Q4V39
www.rebeccaetreasure.com

Managing Editor, Apex Magazine

 
Posted : March 8, 2022 9:46 am
James (Ease) reacted
Yelena
(@scribblesatdusk)
Posts: 225
Silver Member
 

Interesting. I know Heinlein's rules but I reread my stories and wind up seeing all the ways it could be better or all the ways its flawed and then often wind up not sending it out anywhere and just letting it die out in my hard drive. Not all my stories, some I do believe in and keep on the run around but that's very few of them. 

V36:Q3 HM V37: Q3 R, Q4 SHM V38: R,HM, F, HM V39: HM, SHM, SHM, SHM V40: SF, RWC, ?

 
Posted : March 8, 2022 9:59 am
RETreasure
(@rschibler)
Posts: 957
Platinum Member
 

@scribblesatdusk A small part of it is experience, in writing closer to the goal sooner. A large part of it is confidence, and believing in the work as it stands. And some of it is (for me) community, in having had excellent critique partners review the work. Over-editing is as much a danger as not editing enough! One thing I do is I don’t reread stories when they come back. 

V34: R,HM,R
V35: HM,R,R,HM
V36: R,HM,HM,SHM
V37: HM,SF,SHM,SHM
V38: (P)F, SHM, F, F
V39: SHM, SHM, HM, SHM
Published Finalist Volume 38
Pro’d out Q4V39
www.rebeccaetreasure.com

Managing Editor, Apex Magazine

 
Posted : March 8, 2022 10:16 am
Disgruntled Peony
(@disgruntledpeony)
Posts: 1283
Platinum Member
 

I'm a bit different than Becky in this regard: I've been known to revise a manuscript before sending it back out, but ONLY if: a) it's gotten between 5 and 10 R's and b) I've learned something significant in my writing journey between when I wrote the story and when I consider the edit. If I can't figure out how to make the story better, I either keep sending it out or retire it for awhile. (I usually only do the latter if I feel like the story is broken and don't know how to fix it.)

If you are in difficulties with a book, try the element of surprise: attack it at an hour when it isn't expecting it. ~ H.G. Wells
If a person offend you, and you are in doubt as to whether it was intentional or not, do not resort to extreme measures; simply watch your chance and hit him with a brick. ~ Mark Twain
R, SF, SHM, SHM, SHM, F, R, HM, SHM, R, HM, R, F, SHM, SHM, SHM, SF, SHM, 1st Place (Q2 V38)
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Posted : March 8, 2022 11:08 am
James (Ease), CCrawford, RETreasure and 2 people reacted
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