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Cursing and Sexual Situations in WOTF Stories?

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Notley Nix
(@notley)
Posts: 41
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Hello fellow writers, I am new to the forum, but am part of Dave Wolverton's Apex Writing Group and am working on my first submittal to the contest in the 2nd quarter.

I've read quite a few stories in the previous anthologies, though not all. I have a quick question, I don't see any guidelines regarding curse words, or sexual situations in the contest rules (more PG-13 than R!) but wanted to know if a story would have a harder time placing with a more adult audience in mind.

The reason I ask is I saw Wulf Moon post on our Facebook group that the WOTF anthology has a large YA audience.

thank you for any suggestions!

Kizer Nix

 
Posted : January 22, 2020 11:30 am
(@wulfmoon)
Posts: 3143
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The raciest story I've seen published was in Volume 34, I believe. Rock band protestors sleeping together. Can't recall the title, but I was surprised it made it in, in view of comments about the WotF audience Dave has made. Even had some cursing. So there's your comp.

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Posted : January 22, 2020 12:52 pm
Dustin Adams
(@tj_knight)
Posts: 1352
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Nudity is fine, I have found, if necessary(ish) to the story. It has enough history in SF and Fantasy so as to be part of the story, not gratuitous. Sex, however, is mentioned only in passing - enough to get the point across. "They entered the bedroom, and shut off the lights." No more than a paragraph, I recommend... Because for the most part it doesn't generally forward the plot. If it matures character, then the words are few enough that the point gets across.

Dave's own winning story was fascinating. I recommend it for this question. I was a little surprised...

In one of his old Kicks, he said don't pull punches. Don't be milquetoast. So I use his story as my max as my guideline. And gather a general sense from the other antho's stories.

Grats on Apex btw!

Career:

1x Win
2x NW-F
2x S-F
9x S-HM
11x HM
7x R

 
Posted : January 22, 2020 10:00 pm
Notley Nix
(@notley)
Posts: 41
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Topic starter
 

Wulf, Dustin - Thanks for your thoughtful responses. Both helped me decide how to edit this particular story.

Curious about which story Dave won with, do you happen to remember the story or volume?

Best!

 
Posted : January 23, 2020 1:05 am
chuckt
(@chuckt)
Posts: 431
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Hey! I did a thread where I actually did a number count on such things. The contest is increasingly allowing these things but I bet the experienced guys will tell you it's probably still a bit risky. [url] viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7635&p=89723&hilit=shit#p89723/url]

Here is part of what I wrote (this is based on a Read of Vol. 34):

SPOILER ALERT

A Bitter Thing and Flee, My Pretty One both have the characters engaging in sex. Heck, it is the central plot point of A Bitter Thing because the alien making her "come" is a drug to him.

There were "shit"s (3), "hell"s (20), "crap's" (7), and "damn"s (14) and one "god damned." Couple of "piss," but no F-bombs. I am using George Carlin's curse word list by the way. There were no "tits," or "MF"s. No "C_nt." No "cock sucker" but "Suck his own Cock" appeared in A Smokeless and Scorching Fire (a 1st place winner)!

HOWEVER-The sex was only in third place stories. "Shit" appeared once in a second place story (the other two appearances were in the two sex stories). "Crap" did appear in Mara's Shadow (Wow, what a story!) and both sex stories. And "suck his own cock" was in a first-place story. Lots of "Damns" and the one GD was in Flee (surprised that one got through).

I note in the introduction that Dave wrote he doesn't like sex in the stories. Interesting.

Chuck Thompson
6 Rs, 5 HMs, 2 SHMs

 
Posted : January 23, 2020 2:24 am
Notley Nix
(@notley)
Posts: 41
Bronze Member
Topic starter
 

LOL! Thanks Chuckt I love that 'suck his own cock' was in a first place story. That's pretty hardcore. (I did love Mara's Shadow also)

I had a test pilot in my upcoming submission that says 'fuck' in one scene, I will probably edit that out based on the Forum's advice. But, its hard for me to self-sensor. I started as an artist before becoming a writer and in that world it's all about pushing boundaries.

Thanks for sharing your research, this helped!

 
Posted : January 23, 2020 7:16 am
(@kd-julicher)
Posts: 137
Bronze Star Member
 

Hi fellow Apex Writer!

I recommend cutting out the sex and cursing. Consider it an editing exercise - figure out a way to make your story stronger while removing the possible stumbling blocks.

I recently submitted a piece that made Finalist at WOTF over to Deep Magic (I published over there last summer with a former HM story, love those guys) and had to remove a few WOTF-appropriate swears from the piece because I wasn't sure how "hells" and "damns" would fly. But I left in a "hellspawned" because it was a technical term. Know your market! Don't self-eliminate by writing something grossly inappropriate. If I were contributing to a special call about Climate Change, I wouldn't include sections about how tree-huggers are ruining society or make a coal-roller my hero. I'm working on a piece for the Jim Baen Memorial Contest right now: having my heroes spout anti-space-travel rhetoric would make it a no-go there. Know your audience.

WOTF: HM x 16, SHMx2, SF x 1, F V31 Q3, V32 Q2, V32 Q4, V34 Q3, V36 Q1
Baen Fantasy Award Winner 2014
V32 Published Finalist
3rd place V37 Q1!

 
Posted : January 23, 2020 11:11 am
(@wulfmoon)
Posts: 3143
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What KD Julicher said. Just because someone got away with it doesn't mean you will. Don't push this envelope. And a note to all: please refrain from using vulgar terms on future Forum posts. I understand we're adults, and we are trying to figure out what is acceptable, but we do keep clean halls in this establishment. Smile

All the beast,

Wulf Moon
Forum Moderator

Click here to JOIN THE WULF PACK!
"Super-Duper Moongirl and the Amazing Moon Dawdler" won Best SFF Story of 2019! Read it in Writers of the Future, Vol. 35. Order HERE!
Need writing help? My award-winning SUPER SECRETS articles are FREE in DreamForge.
IT’S HERE! Many have been begged me to publish the Super Secrets of Writing. How to Write a Howling Good Story is now a #1 BESTSELLING BOOK! Get yours at your favorite retailer HERE!

 
Posted : January 23, 2020 12:40 pm
Retropianoplayer
(@retropianoplayer)
Posts: 233
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I remember reading Dave Farland in one of the introductions to an anthology state they sell their product to ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS.

Enough said.

Best,

Retro

 
Posted : January 23, 2020 2:35 pm
chuckt
(@chuckt)
Posts: 431
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What KD Julicher said. Just because someone got away with it doesn't mean you will. Don't push this envelope. And a note to all: please refrain from using vulgar terms on future Forum posts.

Sorry about that. I'm used to using such terms in a clinical sense for clarity sake. (Except the F and C words. I won't type them or say them even as part of a clinical discussion). I would never use them in a "conversational" manner in any post, even though, literally, they appear in the WotF anthology. If it comes up again, I'll do the asterisk thing for all such words in the future if that's okay?

Chuck Thompson
6 Rs, 5 HMs, 2 SHMs

 
Posted : January 24, 2020 3:25 am
Alex Harford
(@alexh)
Posts: 292
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"Any story that you submit that is not fit to be read by a high school student is, in my opinion, fatally flawed and will be rejected. Profanity may be edited out, but if vile content is what the story is about, then you need to be submitting to someone else."

Ten Reasons Why I’ll Quickly Reject Your Story
https://mystorydoctor.com/ten-reasons-w ... our-story/

35: - R R R | 36: R HM R R | 37: HM HM HM SHM | 38: HM HM HM HM | 39: HM HM HM SHM | 40: HM R SHM SHM |
4 SHM / 12 HM / 7 R

 
Posted : January 24, 2020 7:21 am
chuckt
(@chuckt)
Posts: 431
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"Any story that you submit that is not fit to be read by a high school student is, in my opinion, fatally flawed and will be rejected. Profanity may be edited out, but if vile content is what the story is about, then you need to be submitting to someone else."

Ten Reasons Why I’ll Quickly Reject Your Story
https://mystorydoctor.com/ten-reasons-w ... our-story/

That is an interesting quote. A story can certainly be vile without using any cursing or sexual content. And, as Volume 34 proves, the opposite is true as well. A BItter Thing has to be on the cutting edge of what is allowable. I was surprised it was in there. Beautifully written for sure but the central premise is quite racy.

Chuck Thompson
6 Rs, 5 HMs, 2 SHMs

 
Posted : January 24, 2020 10:28 am
babooher
(@babooher)
Posts: 217
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Not sure if this is the write place to ask this, but here goes. What about works set in time periods where current socially acceptable terms would be anachronistic, but the terms of the day are now considered unacceptable?

2012 Q4: R
2016 Q3: SHM
2019 Q2: HM, Q3: HM
2020 Q2: HM, Q4: SHM
2021 Q1: HM, Q2: SF, Q3: SHM, Q4: SHM
2022 Q1: SHM, Q2 RWC, Q4 RWC
2023 Q1: RWC Q2: SHM Q3:Nope Q4: WIP

 
Posted : July 11, 2020 9:12 am
Disgruntled Peony
(@disgruntledpeony)
Posts: 1283
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Not sure if this is the write place to ask this, but here goes. What about works set in time periods where current socially acceptable terms would be anachronistic, but the terms of the day are now considered unacceptable?

I would definitely tread lightly in such cases, especially if the terms in question are associated with some form of bigotry.

If you are in difficulties with a book, try the element of surprise: attack it at an hour when it isn't expecting it. ~ H.G. Wells
If a person offend you, and you are in doubt as to whether it was intentional or not, do not resort to extreme measures; simply watch your chance and hit him with a brick. ~ Mark Twain
R, SF, SHM, SHM, SHM, F, R, HM, SHM, R, HM, R, F, SHM, SHM, SHM, SF, SHM, 1st Place (Q2 V38)
Ticknor Tales
Twitter
4th and Starlight: e-book | paperback

 
Posted : July 11, 2020 9:45 am
Dustin Adams
(@tj_knight)
Posts: 1352
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Not sure if this is the write place to ask this, but here goes. What about works set in time periods where current socially acceptable terms would be anachronistic, but the terms of the day are now considered unacceptable?

I do not recommend this at all. Not for big buzzwords, anyway. Words like Wench are OK.

Seeing what my wife goes through with her books...
They've been banned for some of the words inside - despite being time-piece books...
She had to remove the word Gypsy from one novel because it was considered insensitive.

I know there's a lot of political friction for this stuff at the moment, but that aside, it's still up to the publisher if they use it.

Career:

1x Win
2x NW-F
2x S-F
9x S-HM
11x HM
7x R

 
Posted : July 13, 2020 2:00 am
chuckt
(@chuckt)
Posts: 431
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I was just re-watching Django last night and wondering how in the world Tarentino gets away with it. I guess if you are portraying past events as they might have happened, it's acceptable. If you used some of those words as current-speak, you'd get some severe reactions.

Chuck Thompson
6 Rs, 5 HMs, 2 SHMs

 
Posted : July 13, 2020 4:54 am
RETreasure
(@rschibler)
Posts: 957
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It also helps if you're Tarentino, frankly. I would be very cautious using any terms that are currently taboo, particularly racist or sexist terms, unless there is a very compelling story reason to do so.

V34: R,HM,R
V35: HM,R,R,HM
V36: R,HM,HM,SHM
V37: HM,SF,SHM,SHM
V38: (P)F, SHM, F, F
V39: SHM, SHM, HM, SHM
Published Finalist Volume 38
Pro’d out Q4V39
www.rebeccaetreasure.com

Managing Editor, Apex Magazine

 
Posted : July 13, 2020 5:18 am
babooher
(@babooher)
Posts: 217
Silver Member
 

I don't need to use the breadth of Tarantino's language. I'm looking at language such as that found in MLK's "I Have a Dream" speech.

2012 Q4: R
2016 Q3: SHM
2019 Q2: HM, Q3: HM
2020 Q2: HM, Q4: SHM
2021 Q1: HM, Q2: SF, Q3: SHM, Q4: SHM
2022 Q1: SHM, Q2 RWC, Q4 RWC
2023 Q1: RWC Q2: SHM Q3:Nope Q4: WIP

 
Posted : July 13, 2020 8:05 am
Retropianoplayer
(@retropianoplayer)
Posts: 233
Bronze Star Member
 

I don't ever use terms which are racist or hurtful. Ever. Even in historical timepieces. It's not a matter of political correctness; it's a matter of one reader, any reader, being emotionally hurt over choice of words you chose to put into a manuscript. Your reader, or fan, isn't going to peruse the verbiage and say, "Well, that's historically accurate." They're going to be hurt; maybe, it sparks a memory of some past injustice they've experienced, maybe a parent or grandparent acts a certain way at Thanksgiving Dinner. Who knows? I classify it as "VERBOTEN."

And in a contest which judges thousands of entries, it's not a good idea to "test the waters."

That's all I have to say about that.

Best,

Retro

 
Posted : July 13, 2020 8:13 am
Dustin Adams
(@tj_knight)
Posts: 1352
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I don't ever use terms which are racist or hurtful. Ever. Even in historical timepieces. It's not a matter of political correctness; it's a matter of one reader, any reader, being emotionally hurt over choice of words you chose to put into a manuscript. Your reader, or fan, isn't going to peruse the verbiage and say, "Well, that's historically accurate." They're going to be hurt; maybe, it sparks a memory of some past injustice they've experienced, maybe a parent or grandparent acts a certain way at Thanksgiving Dinner. Who knows? I classify it as "VERBOTEN."

And in a contest which judges thousands of entries, it's not a good idea to "test the waters."

That's all I have to say about that.

Best,

Retro

One woman who raged against my wife's book, successfully got it banned from a few elementary schools,(because of one word) was asked if she'd read it. She said no. Context was irrelevant.

Career:

1x Win
2x NW-F
2x S-F
9x S-HM
11x HM
7x R

 
Posted : July 13, 2020 8:24 am
storysinger
(@storysinger)
Posts: 1500
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As writers, sometimes we tend to back up and repeat the sentence just written. Something about it just doesn't feel right. If the problem is about bad or questionable grammar, you're wasting time and energy.

Basically we're all learning to achieve a level-up moment. Don't take a chance on adding a point toward getting a rejection.
Each writer has a chance to choose their path, some are harder to travel than others, IMHO.

If you haven't already, read Dave's lesson for today. He talks about long stories and world-building.

Today's science fiction is tomorrow's reality-D.R.Sweeney
HM x5
Published Poetry
2012 Stars in Our Hearts
Silver Ships

 
Posted : July 13, 2020 11:20 am
(@rusticbohemian)
Posts: 38
Bronze Member
 

There's a female "otherworldly being" that's killed several of my main character's friends over the course of the story. 

At one point the character is thinking to himself and refers to this being as a "hag." I don't find this to be harsh language. If you look the word up in the dictionary it can be used to refer to a witch. But would this be considered offensive and/or sexist? 

 

 

 
Posted : March 30, 2021 7:00 pm
Disgruntled Peony
(@disgruntledpeony)
Posts: 1283
Platinum Member
 

@rusticbohemian Depends on how literal or figurative the term is, I suppose, and what the character's intention is in using it. (Is he using it because she is literally a hag-like being or as a method of disparaging her?)

If you are in difficulties with a book, try the element of surprise: attack it at an hour when it isn't expecting it. ~ H.G. Wells
If a person offend you, and you are in doubt as to whether it was intentional or not, do not resort to extreme measures; simply watch your chance and hit him with a brick. ~ Mark Twain
R, SF, SHM, SHM, SHM, F, R, HM, SHM, R, HM, R, F, SHM, SHM, SHM, SF, SHM, 1st Place (Q2 V38)
Ticknor Tales
Twitter
4th and Starlight: e-book | paperback

 
Posted : March 30, 2021 10:07 pm
(@rusticbohemian)
Posts: 38
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Posted by: @disgruntledpeony

@rusticbohemian Depends on how literal or figurative the term is, I suppose, and what the character's intention is in using it. (Is he using it because she is literally a hag-like being or as a method of disparaging her?)

She fits into the first category, but he's using it in a fit of anger as disparagement. 

 
Posted : March 31, 2021 6:29 am
(@reuben)
Posts: 201
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@rusticbohemian

I wouldn't worry about it, personally. It's not like there's a specific people that it targets. 

Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm ~ Winston Churchill
V37: R, R, R, HM
V38: SHM

 
Posted : March 31, 2021 9:37 am
(@roastiebean)
Posts: 6
Active Member
 

I read a lot of books in my younger years. Personally, unless someone is reading a romance novel where the sexual scenes is supposed to progress the plot between the two main characters, I do not find it is necessary. If it is purely sci-fi, I have to admit... I haven't read many sexual encounters in normal sci-fi books. If however, it is fantasy in nature, then sex as a form of intrigue, manipulation, or even raw desire can progress the story between two characters, but it has to be relevant. Still...most sci-fi books I read, and fantasy, and even the occasional strange/weird/horror, did not have sex. I never saw it as weird. But there again, I grew up in an environment where sex was just not discussed on seen on a day to day basis. Perhaps that is why it doesn't interest me as much. That does not mean I am against sex, and fully believe sexual encounters teaches an individual about a ton of things, including behaviour, boundaries and a bunch of other relevant information. I feel that in the end, if you have lived life the correct way, you end up viewing sex as a way to create children and a form of connection with another being that goes beyond mere sex, more than raw desire that exists between two individuals- which theoretically, lasts all of 6 months- the soft infatuation humans have with each other. After that, it is a gradual decline of sex. It can be argued that there are different stages of sex, and long-lasting relationships fall into routine eventually, where you are in 'essence' living with your best friend for the rest of your life. Unfortunately, after a period of 3-5 years between a couple, there is usually a doubt stage, and if they have not conceived children by then, one party or the other, may indeed find greener pastures. Smile   Here again, having children should be seen as the correct course of action for two people if that is what they want to achieve, but it should not be expected, or a given that people have to leave a legacy. Some people progress in life without having children, and people may disagree here with me, but sometimes, enlightenment cannot be attained by the material world. If it is legacy a character needs in a book, then passion, sex and children is a natural progression. If the person is more concerned about power, then children might a form of hindrance, or even seen as a form of enslavement to an individual like that. Something to consider.

 

This post was modified 3 years ago by Sarah-Jane Moldenhauer
 
Posted : April 21, 2021 5:00 pm
(@rusticbohemian)
Posts: 38
Bronze Member
 

I'm trying to find non-corny terms of derision an angry character could use to refer to a group he hates without running up against the contest's vulgarity filter. 

Brainstorm with me here: 

"Prigs," works pretty well, but I feel like "Jackasses," sounds pretty corny. 

I assume "assholes" is off-limits?

How about "bastards"?

Any other suggestions?

 

 
Posted : May 6, 2021 7:16 am
storysinger
(@storysinger)
Posts: 1500
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Dimwits is low-key and covers a wide spectrum. I haven't used it, but I never say never.

Today's science fiction is tomorrow's reality-D.R.Sweeney
HM x5
Published Poetry
2012 Stars in Our Hearts
Silver Ships

 
Posted : May 6, 2021 10:53 am
DoctorJest
(@doctorjest)
Posts: 835
Platinum Member
 

I'd say look to the setting--find something that is an insult for the world or circle they're moving in. When I lived in the north of England, southerners was an insult--in Sunderland and Newcastle, cities with rival soccer teams, insults linking someone to the other's town (Geordies and Macems, respectively) could be very strong in the right circles. In the mountains where I live, the term flatlanders is often used as an insult, specifically describing people who travel up and treat the mountain like a paid resort where they can litter and be rude to the folks who live here (which is not most of them--but the term is definitely derogatory). I've also seen racial insults work in fantasy fiction, provided that the races themselves are fictional, as that can highlight both an in-world racial conflict and an individual character's prejudices very quickly.

(Note: these are pretty universally of the in-group, out-group form.)

Rather than looking just for an insult, if it's important to the character and the scene, see if you can find something that is more than just an avoid the censors word. Chances are, you can do more with it. 

DQ:0 / R:0 / RWC:0 / HM:15 / SHM:7 / SF:1 / F:1
Published prior WotF entries: PodCastle, HFQ, Abyss & Apex

 
Posted : May 6, 2021 11:46 am
Alex Harford, Reuben, PenMark and 2 people reacted
(@rusticbohemian)
Posts: 38
Bronze Member
 
Posted by: @doctorjest

I'd say look to the setting--find something that is an insult for the world or circle they're moving in. When I lived in the north of England, southerners was an insult--in Sunderland and Newcastle, cities with rival soccer teams, insults linking someone to the other's town (Geordies and Macems, respectively) could be very strong in the right circles. In the mountains where I live, the term flatlanders is often used as an insult, specifically describing people who travel up and treat the mountain like a paid resort where they can litter and be rude to the folks who live here (which is not most of them--but the term is definitely derogatory). I've also seen racial insults work in fantasy fiction, provided that the races themselves are fictional, as that can highlight both an in-world racial conflict and an individual character's prejudices very quickly.

(Note: these are pretty universally of the in-group, out-group form.)

Rather than looking just for an insult, if it's important to the character and the scene, see if you can find something that is more than just an avoid the censors word. Chances are, you can do more with it. 

Good ideas. Thanks

 
Posted : May 6, 2021 11:54 am
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