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NVHaskell
(@nvhaskell)
Bronze Member
Posts: 50

@agathon Thanks, I will check it out!

‘If you write one story, it may be bad; if you write a hundred, you have the odds in your favor.’ ~ Edgar Rice Burroughs
'The War Within' Deep Magic Volume 73 https://deepmagic.co
'A Straw in the Wind' in A Hero's Journey Anthology coming in 2022
V37- R, HM, SHM, HM
V38- HM, SHM, P

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Posted : April 27, 2021 3:08 pm
Cray Dimensional
(@craydimensional)
Bronze Star Member
Posts: 171
Posted by: @wulfmoon
Posted by: @babooher
Posted by: @wulfmoon

You cannot go wrong if you master it, and virtually every aspiring writer I've edited messes it up. Big time

What are the common traps or mistakes you see aspiring writers make with 3rd person limited, past tense?

They cheat. Smile

It's very hard to stay inside the head of your protagonist. It means you can only put on the page what the heroine thinks, sees, feels, reads, tastes, smells, touches, KNOWS. So the aspiring writer hops off their heroine's shoulder when the going gets rough and jumps over to someone else's that has the information the story needs. 

They'll also show things happening that the hero could never see. Or they'll jump from head to head (head hopping) after being exclusively in 3P limited. Head hopping is a huge problem. Not only is it disorienting, it dilutes the power of the narrative, because you are dividing the experience between other characters.

I need to do a Super Secret on this. Most of the Secrets I've written here were born from editing workshop members' stories, or clients' stories. There are mistakes you see over and over again--most aspiring writers make the exact same ones. Yes, I did, too. Weed those out, and you're well on the way to crafting a professional story.

Lol. Yes I got caught on the cheating. I have been trying to find some good resources on what you CAN and CAN'T do with 3rd person limited. It has been a painful experience. However when I discovered Harry Potter was 3rd person limited I started rereading sections to pick up on how JK Rowling did it. She does have a few chapters where she changes the person talking, but generally sticks with that person for the chapter.

I actually tried to find a section on Super Secrets about this.

I just ask that anyone reviewing my work kicks me if they see it. I need tough love.

Small steps add up to miles.
V38: R, R, P

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Posted : April 28, 2021 12:59 pm
Wulf Moon liked
Wulf Moon
(@wulfmoon)
Platinum Plus Member Moderator
Posts: 2335

@craydimensional

Yeah, I haven’t written it yet. It’s on my list for the Super Secrets books. I keep seeing the issue, so I know it will help if I cover it. 😊

Click here to JOIN THE WULF PACK!
"Muzik Man" wins Best SFF Story of 2020! Read it in Best of Deep Magic Anthology Two! Includes stories by Super Secrets' alumni KD Julicher and Brittany Rainsdon!
You know WotF Workshop's 24-hour story exercise? Want to see what I wrote? It's about to be released in the pro-pay anthology THINGS WITH FEATHERS. Order HERE!
I've been invited back to Fyrecon Online to teach my Zoom master workshops Nov. 18th—21st. Four to chose from! Which one will help you level up? Explore HERE ... but you better hurry. They always sell out and are already half full!

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Posted : April 28, 2021 2:22 pm
Scott_M_Sands
(@scott_m_sands)
Bronze Star Member
Posts: 202

A question about plagiarism.

I've looked back through this feed and there is a similar question in regards to Jon Snow apparel. I couldn't quite tell if it covered mine.

One of my flash fiction stories has a girl make reference to a real book (Charlotte's Web) and a real TV series. No characters or anything else from these are mentioned, but the names of the book/show are.

Does that fail the plagiarism test? Would I need to delete it before sending it off to WotF? (What about other markets?)

"Many people will tell you that you can't write. Let no one say that you don't." -Ken Rand
V36-37: R x6
V38: R, HM, P

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Posted : May 10, 2021 7:03 pm
Wulf Moon
(@wulfmoon)
Platinum Plus Member Moderator
Posts: 2335
Posted by: @scott_m_sands

A question about plagiarism.

I've looked back through this feed and there is a similar question in regards to Jon Snow apparel. I couldn't quite tell if it covered mine.

One of my flash fiction stories has a girl make reference to a real book (Charlotte's Web) and a real TV series. No characters or anything else from these are mentioned, but the names of the book/show are.

Does that fail the plagiarism test? Would I need to delete it before sending it off to WotF? (What about other markets?)

This isn't plagiarism, Scott. Passing off material from these intellectual properties as your own would be. Quoting song lyrics not in public domain will get you in trouble also. I will say if WotF publishes your story, they will go through it with a fine toothed comb for any copyright, trademark, and IP issues. But Kary and Dave won't do this in the judging. You should be good. 

Click here to JOIN THE WULF PACK!
"Muzik Man" wins Best SFF Story of 2020! Read it in Best of Deep Magic Anthology Two! Includes stories by Super Secrets' alumni KD Julicher and Brittany Rainsdon!
You know WotF Workshop's 24-hour story exercise? Want to see what I wrote? It's about to be released in the pro-pay anthology THINGS WITH FEATHERS. Order HERE!
I've been invited back to Fyrecon Online to teach my Zoom master workshops Nov. 18th—21st. Four to chose from! Which one will help you level up? Explore HERE ... but you better hurry. They always sell out and are already half full!

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Posted : May 10, 2021 7:46 pm
Scott_M_Sands
(@scott_m_sands)
Bronze Star Member
Posts: 202

@wulfmoon

Thanks, oh mighty Wulf!

That's great news (good clarification about not claiming them as mine, too).

The piece I was referring to is a fun little flash I did in response to the WotF Super Secrets prompt 'Which Witch'. I don't normally go for comedy, but this one was really fun to write!

"Many people will tell you that you can't write. Let no one say that you don't." -Ken Rand
V36-37: R x6
V38: R, HM, P

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Posted : May 10, 2021 9:32 pm
Wulf Moon liked
AlexH
(@alexh)
Silver Member
Posts: 255

There was a story in the most recent volume that mentioned the make and model of a car (Honda Civic, I think) and the name of a famous actress (Megan Fox), and that was a comedy.

35: - R R R | 36: R HM R R | 37: HM HM HM SHM | 38: HM HM

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Posted : May 12, 2021 12:40 pm
Wulf Moon liked
Wulf Moon
(@wulfmoon)
Platinum Plus Member Moderator
Posts: 2335
Posted by: @alexh

There was a story in the most recent volume that mentioned the make and model of a car (Honda Civic, I think) and the name of a famous actress (Megan Fox), and that was a comedy.

Exactly. And yet the WotF copy editor had me change Make A Wish and also My Little Pony in “Super-Duper Moongirl...” You’ll find in publishing, each copy editor has their own parameters they go by, and you do your best to go with the flow at each publishing house. But it won’t hurt your chances for a great story being chosen. I’d still be very careful about quoting song lyrics. 

Click here to JOIN THE WULF PACK!
"Muzik Man" wins Best SFF Story of 2020! Read it in Best of Deep Magic Anthology Two! Includes stories by Super Secrets' alumni KD Julicher and Brittany Rainsdon!
You know WotF Workshop's 24-hour story exercise? Want to see what I wrote? It's about to be released in the pro-pay anthology THINGS WITH FEATHERS. Order HERE!
I've been invited back to Fyrecon Online to teach my Zoom master workshops Nov. 18th—21st. Four to chose from! Which one will help you level up? Explore HERE ... but you better hurry. They always sell out and are already half full!

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Posted : May 13, 2021 8:35 am
AlexH
(@alexh)
Silver Member
Posts: 255

@wulfmoon Oh yes, now I remember you mentioning that about My Little Pony. I liked your alternative though - it fit Dixie's personality, and probably even made a great story even that tiny little bit stronger for me. I like those kinds of references that are unique to a story but obvious enough to picture.

And song lyrics are often a definite no unless they're out of copyright or you can get a licence. I tried for around 18 months to get a licence for two lines I wanted to use - but the licencing company were so slow I gave up. A funny thing happened related to that - I bumped into the songwriter in some cinema toilets after we'd just been to the same screening of Bohemian Rhapsody, pretty much the same week I'd been dealing with the licencing company! I didn't think to ask him about the lyrics, though I imagine it would've been out of his hands too.

35: - R R R | 36: R HM R R | 37: HM HM HM SHM | 38: HM HM

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Posted : May 14, 2021 12:20 pm
Wulf Moon liked
David Hankins
(@lost_bard)
Bronze Star Member
Posts: 162

I’ve been reading through the Forum (lots of great content here!) and I keep coming across comments about entrants taking their high ranking stories and selling them to other markets. At the same time, I also see in the contest rules that you can’t have more than 3 professionally published (8c/word or 5K hits) short stories and still enter. 

Is there some loophole I’m missing here or are folks intentionally writing themselves out of the contest?

V38 Q2: HM
V38 Q3: Submitted
V38 Q4: Submitted

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Posted : May 16, 2021 5:17 am
Disgruntled Peony
(@disgruntledpeony)
Gold Star Member
Posts: 1122
Posted by: @lost_bard

I’ve been reading through the Forum (lots of great content here!) and I keep coming across comments about entrants taking their high ranking stories and selling them to other markets. At the same time, I also see in the contest rules that you can’t have more than 3 professionally published (8c/word or 5K hits) short stories and still enter. 

Is there some loophole I’m missing here or are folks intentionally writing themselves out of the contest?

In my case, I treat it as kind of a race. Will I win before I pro out, or will I pro out before I win? That's because my end goal as a writer isn't to win this contest. It's to develop my skills enough that I can write novels to support my family--or at least, help to support my family. Don't get me wrong, winning would be amazing, but it's only one potential route toward my end goal. If I focused solely on the contest as opposed to trying for other venues as well, odds are good I'd still be unpublished after six years of trying to win. That honestly might have left me frustrated enough to stop writing, and lord knows I don't want to do that.

Also, while I know of other people who have sold their higher-ranking stories in the contest, I've actually had more success with a) revising stories that didn't do well in the contest and sending them elsewhere, and b) targeting markets with themed anthologies.

In the end, it really all depends on what a writer's individual goals are and how they want to pursue those goals. For some people, focusing on the contest is more important, and that's perfectly fair. I just have a broader focus, personally.

If you are in difficulties with a book, try the element of surprise: attack it at an hour when it isn't expecting it. ~ H.G. Wells
R, SF, SHM, SHM, SHM, F, R, HM, SHM, R, HM, R, F, SHM, SHM, SHM, SF, SHM, 1st Place (Q2 V38)
Ticknor Tales

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Posted : May 16, 2021 8:11 am
David Hankins
(@lost_bard)
Bronze Star Member
Posts: 162
Posted by: @disgruntledpeony

In my case, I treat it as kind of a race. Will I win before I pro out, or will I pro out before I win? That's because my end goal as a writer isn't to win this contest. It's to develop my skills enough that I can write novels to support my family--or at least, help to support my family. Don't get me wrong, winning would be amazing, but it's only one potential route toward my end goal. If I focused solely on the contest as opposed to trying for other venues as well, odds are good I'd still be unpublished after six years of trying to win. That honestly might have left me frustrated enough to stop writing, and lord knows I don't want to do that.

Also, while I know of other people who have sold their higher-ranking stories in the contest, I've actually had more success with a) revising stories that didn't do well in the contest and sending them elsewhere, and b) targeting markets with themed anthologies.

In the end, it really all depends on what a writer's individual goals are and how they want to pursue those goals. For some people, focusing on the contest is more important, and that's perfectly fair. I just have a broader focus, personally.

@disgruntledpeony, Thanks! That makes sense. I kind of like the idea of using WotF as a launchpad for a writing career, regardless of whether you win or not. It's a great way to practice, improve, and network with other writers in the nascent stages of their careers while getting advice and tips from those who have already made it, like @wulfmoon.

The fact that you can enter quarterly with the potential of getting professional feedback on your work is pretty big. I've been submitting a novel to agents for a year and barely gotten more than a 'thanks but no thanks' email in reply. After reading only half of Wulf's Super Secret's I've now realized that my novel is fundamentally flawed.

*sigh*

I am definitely staying with the contest for a while to improve my skills, but you have a good point that winning the contest isn't necessarily the end-all-be-all. Like you, my goal is to make enough money with writing to pay the bills and I feel like full-lenght novels is where that happens. To get there, however, I've realized that I need to learn the foundations of writing which go way beyond the proper English and basic writing I learned growing up and this contest is the place to learn.

Who knew that you needed three try/fail cycles, a character/setting/problem, a hook, seven points in your plot and an opening that starts at the crux of the problem (along with a million other critical details that make good stories)? Not this guy. At least, not until I got here. 

Thanks for the insight. It gives me a lot to think about as I keep writing, improving (hopefully), and pushing toward that goal of paying the bills to put food on the table. 

 

 

 

V38 Q2: HM
V38 Q3: Submitted
V38 Q4: Submitted

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Posted : May 16, 2021 4:08 pm
Wulf Moon
(@wulfmoon)
Platinum Plus Member Moderator
Posts: 2335

@lost_bard  As Dixie says: "One step at a time, my physical therapist used to say, and look where that's gotten me so far!"

 

Click here to JOIN THE WULF PACK!
"Muzik Man" wins Best SFF Story of 2020! Read it in Best of Deep Magic Anthology Two! Includes stories by Super Secrets' alumni KD Julicher and Brittany Rainsdon!
You know WotF Workshop's 24-hour story exercise? Want to see what I wrote? It's about to be released in the pro-pay anthology THINGS WITH FEATHERS. Order HERE!
I've been invited back to Fyrecon Online to teach my Zoom master workshops Nov. 18th—21st. Four to chose from! Which one will help you level up? Explore HERE ... but you better hurry. They always sell out and are already half full!

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Posted : May 16, 2021 7:43 pm
Scott_M_Sands
(@scott_m_sands)
Bronze Star Member
Posts: 202

@lost_bard

Kind of similar to Disgruntled Peony for me. I'd obviously love to win the contest. But I'd also love to sell enough stories to pro out. Either way, the contest is a perfect training ground to help our careers. I've been listening to the WotF podcasts, and current judges for the WotF contest actually 'pro'd out' too when they were starting (Kevin J Anderson, for one). They are hugely successful now.

As for submitting to other markets, if you're like me and you're writing at least two stories a quarter: a) you currently have a nice backlog   b) you have at least one fresh story PLUS your WotF submission each quarter- why not send those little krakens out and get your name known! Plenty of the stories that don't win WotF are being published by other pro markets.

btw, if you're doing the KYD flash stories, they're less than 1000w. I could be mistaken, but I believe you can sell as many of these to pro markets as you want without it counting against you for WotF (but please check that first!)

dancingbanana

"Many people will tell you that you can't write. Let no one say that you don't." -Ken Rand
V36-37: R x6
V38: R, HM, P

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Posted : May 31, 2021 7:22 am
David Hankins
(@lost_bard)
Bronze Star Member
Posts: 162
Posted by: @scott_m_sands

As for submitting to other markets, if you're like me and you're writing at least two stories a quarter: a) you currently have a nice backlog   b) you have at least one fresh story PLUS your WotF submission each quarter- why not send those little krakens out and get your name known! Plenty of the stories that don't win WotF are being published by other pro markets.

btw, if you're doing the KYD flash stories, they're less than 1000w. I could be mistaken, but I believe you can sell as many of these to pro markets as you want without it counting against you for WotF (but please check that first!)

dancingbanana

I’m not to the point of two stories a quarter, but I can see the appeal of sending extras (or those that place highly without winning) to other markets. For me, WotF started as away to acquire some writing credits in support of novel publication (I had no clue how stiff the competition here was) so publication in other markets would serve the same purpose. However, WotF quickly turned into a personal journey of writing discovery as I realized how much I didn’t know and dove into the wide weird wonderful world of this forum. So I’m going to refrain from tempting the fate of other markets until I’ve honed my craft a bit.

As a newbie to this (Q2 of this year was my first short story ever), I’m cautiously curious to see how my first entry did as I polish my second. 

V38 Q2: HM
V38 Q3: Submitted
V38 Q4: Submitted

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Posted : May 31, 2021 4:57 pm
Scott_M_Sands
(@scott_m_sands)
Bronze Star Member
Posts: 202

@lost_bard

I've also written an (as yet unpublished) manuscript. I read novels more than short stories. But I love how much practicing with short stories has improved my writing craft.

"Many people will tell you that you can't write. Let no one say that you don't." -Ken Rand
V36-37: R x6
V38: R, HM, P

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Posted : May 31, 2021 6:27 pm
Cray Dimensional
(@craydimensional)
Bronze Star Member
Posts: 171

Just curious. For WoTF can you specify a trademarked name such as Nike, Magic-8, Coach Bag, … or should we avoid those.

Small steps add up to miles.
V38: R, R, P

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Posted : September 28, 2021 12:15 am
AliciaCay liked
Wulf Moon
(@wulfmoon)
Platinum Plus Member Moderator
Posts: 2335
Posted by: @craydimensional

Just curious. For WoTF can you specify a trademarked name such as Nike, Magic-8, Coach Bag, … or should we avoid those.

They won’t cause Dave to reject your story. But if you get accepted, their copy editor will go through them with a fine-toothed comb. They don’t take risks by publishing registered trademarks in their volumes.

Click here to JOIN THE WULF PACK!
"Muzik Man" wins Best SFF Story of 2020! Read it in Best of Deep Magic Anthology Two! Includes stories by Super Secrets' alumni KD Julicher and Brittany Rainsdon!
You know WotF Workshop's 24-hour story exercise? Want to see what I wrote? It's about to be released in the pro-pay anthology THINGS WITH FEATHERS. Order HERE!
I've been invited back to Fyrecon Online to teach my Zoom master workshops Nov. 18th—21st. Four to chose from! Which one will help you level up? Explore HERE ... but you better hurry. They always sell out and are already half full!

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Posted : September 28, 2021 12:35 am
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